On Hardball with Chris Matthews, April 11, 2007 - 7 P.M.

Guests Vivian Stringer, Barack Obama, Armstrong Williams, Craig Crawford, Jonathan Capehart, Clarence Page, Steve Capus, Robert Johnson, Phil Griffin, DeForest Soaries talk with guest host, David Gregory
Transcript for Hardball:
DAVID GREGORY, GUEST HOST: Tonight, NBC News announces it will no longer air Don Imus‘ radio program here on MSNBC. We have the latest. Let‘s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I‘m David Gregory, in for Chris Matthews tonight.

NBC News has announced that MSNBC will no longer simulcast the radio show IMUS IN THE MORNING. A statement released last today by NBC News president Steve Capus said the following, quote, “Effective immediately, MSNBC will no longer simulcast the IMUS IN THE MORNING radio program. This decision comes as a result of an ongoing review process.”

Still Capus‘ statement, “Which initially included the announcement of a suspension. It also takes into account many conversation with our own employees, what matters most to us”—Capus‘ statement continuing now—

“is that the men and women of NBC Universal have confidence in the values we have set for this company. This is the only decision that makes that possible. Once again, we apologize to the women of the Rutgers basketball team and to our viewers. We deeply appreciate the pain this incident has caused.”

That is a statement late today from NBC News president Steve Capus.

Steve Capus will be our guest here on HARDBALL momentarily.

We are joined now by phone, by Rutgers women basketball coach C. Vivian Stringer.

Coach Stringer, welcome. Your reaction to the announcement by this network?

VIVIAN STRINGER, COACH, RUTGERS WOMEN‘S BASKETBALL TEAM: Thank you, David. I was surprised. I didn‘t know what was going to happen. And as you know, the team and I did agree to and we still do, as far as I know, agree to (AUDIO GAP). If—Mr. Imus to understand the man behind the comments that we heard.

Nonetheless, we viewed this as, obviously, very hurtful, but it went across all lines. And I think that perhaps he failed to understand that, as he, you know, pointed barbs toward this team that should have been celebrated, but instead came back to, you know, a 50-second -- 50-second comment that was degrading at the very least.

But I don‘t think that he understood. It wasn‘t just the Rutgers women‘s basketball team, it was all women. And all of us have moms and sisters. And I think that it touched the citizens.

It‘s been my contention all along that too often there are powerful figures who speak for all of us. But yet, in this situation, I think that all of us took a little piece of this. Certainly all African-Americans. And people of any color.

And this happened, it restored my confidence, actually, in people being decent human beings and demanding that there be better standards, not only from Mr. Imus but for a lot of people in a lot of different venues, that we really embrace the notion of preparing our young people and protecting our young people so they can become good and decent people.

GREGORY: Coach, let me ask you, is this meeting with the players and Don Imus still going to happen this week?

STRINGER: Well, as far as I know. I mean, believe me, I just heard about this less than 10 minutes ago. So as I know, I guess it would. Because I would still want to know who this person is. He needs to know who the people are that he hurt.

Because I think we don‘t take time, many times, to think about the fact that we‘re all human beings and behind our titles, coach or president, CEO, we‘re human beings. And that‘s what really happened here.

He still needs to know who this team is. And if he doesn‘t, you know, that‘s all well and good, as well. I don‘t know how the players are going to feel.

But our purpose was not to even make a decision about whether or not he should be fired. Our purpose was to bring about a better understanding and a closure for this basketball team, who, like I said, never got a chance to celebrate anything other than the hurtful statements made by him.

GREGORY: In your conversations with these young ladies and this team, was it their intention as part of this meeting to get him to be part of a dialogue to heal this wound publicly? In other words, did they want him to stay on the air? Or did they want him to be fired? Or did they think he could be constructive by staying on the air?

STRINGER: No. There was no comment on that side of it. I think that if it were intended to bring about a public embarrassment and humiliation, obviously then we could have asked him to come to Rutgers and, you know, apologize profusely and, you know, they could have thrown anything that they wanted out there. But that wasn‘t it. If you noticed, we talked about it being a secret meeting in an undisclosed place.

This hurt all of us. I mean, it hurt our recruiting. It hurt, you know, the former players, Rutgers University, the state and the whole thing. We just really want to know, who are you? What is it? Because we also understand that he has done a lot of good things.

And so, you know, if you noticed, I made a statement about his statements. I didn‘t say him the person. I said that his remarks were sexist and racist. And, you know, we need to be responsible for that.

So I think that the young people just really wanted to look him in the face and see his heart. And feel and know that this is a human being, you know, a walking, talking, breathing, caring person. Not this powerful figure behind a microphone that says anything he wants.

And in particular, to hurt people and to hurt them because they have been totally innocent. All they demonstrated is they worked hard and they rose from, you know, the lowest of the depths to the national stage. And they were supposed to be the Cinderella, and look like they put the slipper on it, and it turned into a pumpkin at that.

GREGORY: Coach Stringer, in addition to the decision by NBC News to no longer the simulcast of the IMUS IN THE MORNING program here on MSNBC, CBS Radio has also suspended without pay for two weeks, Imus who, of course, airs all over the country on the radio, on CBS Radio. That would be effective April 16.

So you‘ve got that suspension without pay. And now being off the air at MSNBC. Is this the just result, in your estimation?

STRINGER: You know, I wasn‘t making a decision. I wanted to hear what he had to say. I think that justice must be served to the people. And that‘s why I‘m saying, we just happened to be an instrument for change.

We happened to be the innocent people to which he referred his remarks to.

But I think that everyone took it as a personal front to them, all women, you know, across this nation. All black females. And all black people, aside from the fact that, you know, those that have been trying to inspire and receive scholarships for athletics, I think that it was just all of us, we the people. I think if we the people, the little people.

Because even though the advertisers are the big, powerful conglomerates that we see, you know, they are also human beings that also depend upon, you know, the average, you know, homeowner or the consumer to support their products.

And I think that what we need to know is that there is a moral consciousness that‘s there and that the people‘s voice can truly be heard. And to me it is not Rutgers who‘s done this.

Mr. Imus created this situation. But he probably awakened, you know, within each and he person, what are we all about? And when does this stop?

GREGORY: Right.

STRINGER: And who is it that any of us are so great or so powerful that we can say and do anything to anyone and there not be some repercussions for it? That‘s what I think is going to happen.

IMUS: All right. Coach C. Vivian Stringer, thank you very much for joining us.

STRINGER: You‘re more than welcome. Thank you.

GREGORY: The breaking news here on MSNBC is that Don Imus has been taken off the air at MSNBC. The simulcast of the IMUS IN THE MORNING will no longer air. He has also been suspended by CBS Radio, which airs his program around the country from the flagship station in New York, WFAN. He‘s been suspended for two weeks without pay.

Joining us now is the president of NBC News, Steve Capus, joining us from New York.

The breaking news here on MSNBC is that Don Imus has been taken off the air at MSNBC. The simulcast of the “IMUS IN THE MORNING” program will no longer air. He has also been suspended by CBS Radio, which airs his program around the country from the flagship station in New York, WFAN. He‘s been suspended for two weeks without pay.

Joining us now is the president of NBC News, Steve Capus, joining us from New York. Steve, hello.

STEVE CAPUS, PRESIDENT, NBC NEWS: Hi, David.

GREGORY: And why don‘t you take me through why you made this decision?

CAPUS: Well, it‘s been a week since the original broadcast on the Imus program. And during that time, there have been any number of things that have happened. When I first learned of the comments, we issued an apology and we denounced the comments. They were awful. They were hateful. They were deplorable.

But something also happened right after that, and that is a dialogue that‘s been going on inside the country, and it‘s been going on inside NBC News.

I‘ve received hundreds, if not thousands of emails, both internal and external, with people with very strong views about what should happen. I‘ve listened to those people with their comments. And many of them are people who have worked at NBC News for decades, people who put their lives on the line covering wars and things like that.

These comments were deeply hurtful to many, many people.

And we‘ve had any number of employee conversations, discussions, emails, phone calls. And when you listen to the passion and the people who come to the conclusion that there should not be any room for this sort of conversation and dialogue on our air, it was the only decision we could reach.

GREGORY: And Steve, I don‘t have to tell you. I mean, some of our colleagues, like Al Roker, who did it publicly with a blog on “The Today Show” Web site and others have said essentially that this kind of humor, this platform has been given to—over to Imus for too long now, with this kind discourse and humor.

CAPUS: The Imus program is what it is. And I am proud of some of the things that are on there and not so proud of others. I like that politicians come there to announce that they‘re running for the presidency. I like what Don Imus has done through the years to help kids with cancer at the Imus Ranch. He has raised awareness about autism. He has done any number of good things. And there is no question about that.

I think he is a complex man, and I think in many ways, he is a good man. I don‘t—I think this is not—I‘ve listened to him, by the way, over these last couple of days, and heard him loud and clear talk about how truly sorry he is for these comments. And I believe that. I believe—you know, I take him at his word when he says he‘s not a racist.

But I also believe that those were racist comments. And I believe that it comes—that there have been any number of other comments that have been enormously hurtful to far too many people. And my feeling is that can‘t—that there should not be a place for that on MSNBC.

GREGORY: What was the tipping point, though, Steve? Because people will look at what‘s happened in the past day—General Motors, GlaxoSmithKline, American Express, Ditech.com, Procter & Gamble, companies—Staples—pulling their advertising from MSNBC. And the obvious question that is going to come up that, you know, we‘re feeling the heat and we‘re reacting to dollars.

CAPUS: Look, I understand the people are going to view it that way, and I only say that that—that is not why this decision was made. This decision was made after listening to the people who work for NBC News, who have placed a trust and respect the trust that America has given us.

I ask you, what price do you put on your reputation? And the reputation of this news division means more to me than advertising dollars. Because if you lose your reputation, you lose everything.

And so yesterday, I found out after the fact that some of the advertisers had started to pull their money away. Those types of reports don‘t land on my desk immediately. And honestly, that is not what is behind this.

This is about trust. It‘s about reputation. It‘s about doing what‘s right.

GREGORY: What happened in between the decision-making about the suspension and then the decision to actually pull him off the air?

CAPUS: The days are running together now. But we announced the suspension, and I believed that Imus took some courageous and smart and appropriate actions, with the level of apology that you saw from him on the air day after day, the fact that he went and sat with the Reverend Al Sharpton and spoke on his radio program. And perhaps more importantly than speaking, he listened, and I wanted that process to continue.

At the same time, internally, we were having conversations about what all of this meant. Some of those conversations led to some very interesting reporting on “Nightly News” and “The Today Show” and MSNBC, on NBC stations all across the country—in fact, on every media outlet. There has been an opportunity to have a very important dialogue about race relations and everything—everything that goes under that broad umbrella.

And what has been going on is a lot of conversation, a lot of listening and a lot of talking, and we came to this conclusion. I take no pride—I take no joy in this. It is not a particularly happy moment, but it needed to happen.

GREGORY: Steve, what struck me as I read your decision, since there has been so much conversation about the meeting that is apparently going to happen—although Coach Stringer wasn‘t certain it was going to happen—between Imus and the basketball players at Rutgers. Why not let that meeting go forward and get some feedback from that before making a decision like this?

CAPUS: I don‘t believe that it should be the Rutgers women‘s basketball team that decides Don Imus‘ fate. I mope that meeting still takes place. I think that Imus has things that he wants to say to them, and I believe that that team has things that they want him to hear.

That news conference yesterday by that basketball team and by Vivian Stringer was extraordinary. And that was one of the other things that took place between the time we announced the suspension and when we‘ve made this call.

And I would say that when Vivian Stringer spoke there for about 20 minutes yesterday, from the heart, and she said that she was going to put a human face on this entire situation, many of us took note. I think the entire country did, and appreciated her words and her actions. And to just to watch the members of that team talk about losing their opportunity to celebrate their remarkable achievements on and off the court this year—those comments really hit home.

GREGORY: Defenders of Imus, people close to Imus, other observers

like Mike Lupica this morning, who is a columnist for “The Daily News,” as

you know, and is a frequent guest on the Imus program, said, you know, the

worst thing you do in your public life should not be the last. And if

that‘s the case, then how does Jesse Jackson, who called Jews in New York -

or called New York Hymietown, or the Reverend Sharpton in the way he divided New York City over the Brawley case, how can they be able to apologize and move on, but in this case, Don Imus cannot apologize and move on, especially given his pledge to change his program.

CAPUS: I take no delight in what has happened to Don Imus. Again, I believe he is a good man. But what I would say is, it‘s going to be up to him to decide whether this is his final act. I don‘t think this needs to be the last act for Don Imus. But I can‘t also ignore—and this is what I‘ve heard time and time again from so many people who work for me at NBC News—I can‘t ignore the fact that there is a very long list of inappropriate comments, of inappropriate banter, and it has to stop. It needed to stop. There shouldn‘t—there just should not be a place for that.

And I take no delight in this. I really don‘t.

GREGORY: As the president of the news division, and as a media figure, what do you think the lesson is going to be of this?

CAPUS: Well, look, I‘ll tell you what I don‘t—what I hope doesn‘t happen. I hope we don‘t squander this remarkable opportunity that we have to continue this dialogue that has taken place, to continue the dialogue about what is appropriate conduct and speech, to continue the dialogue about what is happening in America.

I think we have, as broadcasters, a responsibility to address those matters.

This—for the people who were involved in this, from the Rutgers team, this isn‘t a situation, this isn‘t an incident. This is life. And that‘s why when you listen to Vivian Stringer speak yesterday, and the members of that team speak, you understand why those comments came from the heart.

This is not some incident that has happened. This is someone‘s life that we‘re talking about here. And so when you get—when you touch something that deeply, we have a responsibility in our reporting to continue this remarkable national dialogue that has begun.

GREGORY: Steve, what can you say about your conversations with Don Imus today and in the last few days?

CAPUS: I‘ve not spoken with him today, and I intend to. And—I—

look, I‘m one of the people who consider themselves an Imus fan. I listen

to him every morning, and I think very highly of him. I really do. And I

but I needed to make this call, and I believe this is the right call.

GREGORY: Have you talked at all to CBS, and do you have a feeling about what CBS Radio will do about the future of his program?

CAPUS: I don‘t—I have not. My boss has. And I know those conversations took place. We called to inform them that we were going to do this. But I don‘t know what is going to happen with the radio program.

GREGORY: Do you have an opinion about what should happen?

CAPUS: No. That needs to be their call. I—my focus is on NBC.

GREGORY: All right. Steve Capus, the president of our news division and the president of MSNBC as well, making the decision to take Don Imus off the air.

Steve, thanks very much.

CAPUS: Thank you, David.

GREGORY: We‘ll have more on HARDBALL, much more on the cancellation by NBC News of the “IMUS IN THE MORNING” program by this network, and we‘ll continue with more HARDBALL after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GREGORY: We are back on HARDBALL. The breaking news of this hour, MSNBC and NBC News have decided to take Don Imus off the air. The simulcast of the IMUS IN THE MORNING radio program will no longer be simulcast on this network, MSNBC. He has also been suspended without pay for two weeks by CBS Radio.

We‘ve been talking to NBC News president Steve Capus.

Earlier today, I spoke to Senator Barack Obama about the Don Imus incident. This is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE):

GREGORY: Senator Obama, I want to begin by asking you about Don Imus.

You have condemned his remarks about the women‘ basketball team at Rutgers.

Let me ask you pointedly, do you think he should be fired?

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don‘t think MSNBC should be carrying the kinds of hateful remarks that Imus uttered the other day. And he has a track record of making those kinds of remarks.

Look, I‘ve got two daughters who are African-American, gorgeous, tall, and I hope that at some point, are interested enough in sports that they get athletic scholarships. And my wife and I every day are reinforcing our love for them and how special they are.

I don‘t want them to be getting a bunch of information that somehow they‘re less than anybody else. And I don‘t think MSNBC should want to promote that kind of language.

GREGORY: So he should be off the air, off MSNBC and off CBS, off the air completely in your judgment?

OBAMA: Ultimately, you guys are going to have to make that view. He would not be working for me.

GREGORY: Is there a larger conversation that this incident has started about public discourse in this country, about race in this country, and if so, what is that conversation you‘d like to see?

OBAMA: Well, I think it goes beyond race. Obviously, what this reveals is that we still have a host of racial stereotypes that are out there. And that we are fast and loose in playing with those racial stereotypes and bandying them about and thinking that there aren‘t going to be any consequences to it. And that‘s a problem.

But I also think there‘s a broader problem of a coarsening of the culture, where we think that it‘s entertainment to insult people. And I don‘t think it‘s that funny. And I think that we need to think about how are we promoting tolerance and how are we promoting intelligent debate, and that‘s not been the trend in too much of our media. That‘s something I think that we‘ve all got to think about.

GREGORY: The final point on this, you‘ve been a guest on the Imus program to promote your books. Will you or would you be a guest on his show in the future?

OBAMA: No, I would not. I was on their once, actually, after the Democratic National Convention. I spoke about my book briefly. That‘s been my only experience on the show. And he was fine when I was on that show.

But I don‘t want to be an enabler or be encouraging in anyway of the kind of programming that results in the unbelievably offensive statements that were made just a few days ago.

GREGORY: Senator Obama in a conversation earlier today, obviously before the NBC News decision to take Don Imus off of MSNBC.

We‘re joined by radio talk show host and syndicated columnist Armstrong Williams; MSNBC political analyst Craig Crawford of “Congressional Quarterly”, a frequent Imus guest; Jonathan Capehart of the “Washington Post”; and Clarence Page of the “Chicago Tribune”.

And Clarence, you are on the phone. Yes?

All right. OK. We‘ll get to Clarence Page in just a moment.

Armstrong Williams, we are doing our best to report about ourselves.

CLARENCE PAGE, “CHICAGO TRIBUNE”: Can you hear me?

GREGORY: I can hear you, Clarence, right. We‘re just getting started, and we‘ll get to you in just a moment.

PAGE: OK.

GREGORY: Armstrong, did you see this coming over the past couple of days?

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, you know, the thing that I think many of us did not consider, which I thought was critical by the president Steve Capus, was a conversation among trusted employees who have a legacy and a reputation at NBC and MSNBC.

And as someone who‘s an employee myself, that is something that‘s very important, and you have to consider that. And NBC made a decision that I think we all must respect.

Because you can look at Capus. He really agonized. You could tell Imus was a friend and this was a sad day for him. But he had—it had nothing to do with advertisers, which he said, which I believe. And it had nothing to do, really, with public opinion.

It had to do with people like Al Roker and others who work inside that building, who give their name and reputation and everything they have to make your network what it is today. He made a decision for the employees. And I think we have to respect that and admire him for it.

GREGORY: Clarence Page, I know that I can tell you, there were internal telephone calls and meetings where a lot of people, mostly African-American colleagues, voiced their views about this.

Al Roker‘s name is mentioned because he spoke about it publicly. Gwen Ifill, who is a former colleague here at NBC News, wrote about it powerfully, I thought, in the “New York Times”. Your reaction to this?

PAGE: Well, I, too, was moved to take a strong stand over the weekend, because of all the reaction I was hearing from my professional broadcast colleagues and my own family and folks in (inaudible).

Hello?

GREGORY: Yes, I‘m sorry, Clarence. I don‘t know what the interference is. But we can hear you fine.

PAGE: I was interrupted by one of your directors, I think.

But I was—I, too, was getting that kind of—of really emotional reaction. I mean, when people just repeat those words to themselves, nappy-headed hos, that just, it just evokes a visceral reaction.

So I‘m not that surprised, and I‘m somewhat gratified that there was that kind of negative response from inside that gratified that MSNBC was considerate enough to respond to it.

GREGORY: Craig Crawford, we‘ve had a debate in the past few days about whether there‘s a racial divide in terms of how these—in terms of the reaction. I don‘t think there‘s much of a divide in terms of how people view these comments as being repugnant. I don‘t think there‘s any disagreement about it.

But we‘ve talk about on this program about you thinking that such a move would be over the line. And now he‘s effectively been fired from MSNBC, and we‘ll see what happens at CBS. And Don Imus has apologized profusely. He has wanted to apologize in person to the lady basketball players, the lady‘s team at Rutgers.

Do you think this is a case of NBC News caving in to the political and economic pressure?

CRAIG CRAWFORD, “CONGRESSIONAL QUARTERLY”: Well, in listening to Capus, I could hear the angst in his voice, David, and I can certainly understand that. I didn‘t think he deserved another chance, because knowing him as I do, I really believe he would seize upon this cause and put his heart into it like he does so many causes and make a difference and possibly more of a difference than having been fired.

But I also thought after we did the segment on HARDBALL last night, David, and later on that evening, as I read my e-mail for starters, a lot of it is supportive of Imus but a lot of it not. I began to think, you know, he has become a vessel for discrimination of all kinds everywhere.

People were relating stories of their personal lives and discrimination, and he‘d just become a symbol of discrimination and bias.

I went through the day. I‘m very loyal. I‘m Scotch-Irish. I‘m loyal to inanimate objects. And he had been a friend and someone I felt the need to stand up for. But at the he said of the day yesterday, I came to the conclusion that he was probably not going to last.

GREGORY: Jonathan Capehart, when you look at this, this is an example of a feeding frenzy leading to him being taken down. That‘s one perspective. Or that what he said was so awful that it created a tipping point, where people stopped and said, enough of this kind of humor. What is it to you?

JONATHAN CAPEHART, WASHINGTON POST: I think it‘s the latter. I think that the decision made by MSNBC—and speaking personally, not for the board—was a moral decision. I think that what Don Imus said was not just over the line, it obliterated the line. And because of the prominence of someone like Don Imus, where, you know, people like Senator Obama have gone on the show, Senator Biden has gone on the show, other people who are promoting...

GREGORY: I‘ve been a frequent guest on there.

CAPEHART: And lots of my colleagues at the “Washington Post” and “Newsweek” have been on. Because he is this—was—maybe from an MSNBC perspective—a prominent person. You wanted to go on his show. It was a must-do, as we said in our editorial, to do his show.

But when you call people names, when you call a group of women nappy-headed hos, what it says about him and about that show is not terribly nice.

But I think the larger issue here is that what made him feel comfortable to say that? And I would argue that we have gotten to a point where words like ho, words—I‘m not sure if I can say the b-word on the air or even the n-word, they‘ve become so mainstream that I think people don‘t understand or even remember the power of those words. And I do think that what you described as a feeding frenzy was really, I think, people saying, as you said, enough. Like, the moral outrage had gotten to the point where they figured, because Imus is so prominent, that if he can get away with it, then who is the next person? And you have to draw the line somewhere.

And it‘s too bad—it‘s too bad for Imus, given all the good works that everyone keeps talking about.

GREGORY: We‘re going to take a break. The panel is going to stay with us. Again, if you‘re just joining us, Don Imus has been taken off the air here at MSNBC by NBC News. You heard earlier from NBC News President Steve Capus. We‘ll play some of that for you as we proceed in the hour.

We‘ll come back with our panel and continue to discuss this news.

You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: In a blatant...

GREGORY: The Reverend Al Sharpton now reacting to MSNBC taking Don Imus off the air.

SHARPTON: ... sexism and racism. It is our hope that CBS will do the same. Tomorrow morning at 11:00, I will join others and we will rally in front of CBS to ask that they also do this.

The issue for us is not and has not been the person of Don Imus. It has been the use of the airwaves to blatantly promote sexism and racism, as his ugly and venomous statements about these young basketball students at Rutgers University.

It is our feeling that this is only the beginning. This must be a walk that CBS now does, it must be a walk that others would do.

Then we must have a broad discussion on what is permitted and what is not permitted in terms of airwaves.

What this particular issue becomes interesting, when it was revealed today that when Mr. Imus had insisted that he was just a good person, that now the revelations coming out of his own private conversations, suddenly speaks to otherwise and other that views.

We feel that his private conversations only undermines his defense to those he was contracted to. It is his public statements that he should have been fired for, that we demanded that firing, and that we now go to CBS with.

Let me add that when we began the campaign yesterday with advertisers, it showed power that people have when people determine that they will not spend money to subsidize being insulted and offended.

Out of the many issues that we fought, I think this has become one that hit a core with a lot of people of all races, of all backgrounds. To see young people who are not doing wrong, who have not engaged in some anti-social or destructive behavior, but have excelled academically and then athletically, being just called some nappy-headed hos, and then the entire conversation, jigaboos versus wannabes. Something I think struck in many people around this country—black and white and Latino and Asian and others—saying that there must be a line.

There are those that say, what about those in entertainment? Well, we must also have that discussion. But we could not have that discussion without first saying that those that are given serious stature, with presidential candidates and U.S. senators and broadcast anchor people appearing on their shows can use those same platforms to denigrate and desecrate people by race and by sex. Let‘s remember, Joe Biden announced his race for president on Mr. Imus‘ show. This was no ordinary platform. And I think that it is very important.

It is a significant step. It is one, though, we do not gloat in. It is really sad that in 2007, that we would even have to deal with this kind of issue. You would think that we had learned these lessons long ago.

I hope that what NBC does is the beginning of us reappraising how we use the public airwaves, even how we use our own language.

All of us can do better, but none of us have the right to use public airwaves in the way that Mr. Imus has consistently done. Mr. Imus said...

GREGORY: The Reverend Al Sharpton speaking in New York in reaction to the decision by this network, MSNBC, to take Don Imus off the air, and saying that he will pressure CBS Radio, beginning tomorrow, to do the same. CBS Radio has suspended Imus for two weeks without pay because of his remarks last week.

We‘re joined by phone now by Robert Johnson, the founder, of course, of Black Entertainment Television. And he is on the phone.

Mr. Johnson, thanks for being here.

ROBERT JOHNSON, BET FOUNDER: Delighted to be here.

GREGORY: Your reaction to this.

JOHNSON: Well, I think absolutely, Don Imus should be fired by both, as he was by MSNBC, and also by CBS.

I think the issue is—and I‘ve watched the show and I‘ve seen Don Imus in a sort of iconoclastic way, chat with politicians and authors and other, quote, intellectuals, and you know, you would think that a guy who could sort of joust with these people would understand the historical significance of a white individual saying such derogatory things about black women, who during slavery were basically used and abused in the worst way possible. And not only that, saying it with some impunity, that he would think that black men would not rise up in outrage when some white man would say that on the air about their, you know, by extension, mothers, daughters, sisters.

And there is no way he could claim any intellectual mantle, and there is no way anybody who went on his show for intellectual jousting could say, hey, this is a guy who allows us to sort of have this kind of freewheeling debate.

Don Imus, you know, showed a deep side of racism that exists in this country, that sort of creeps out and then people express surprise. And I think—I can‘t see how CBS could not let him go.

GREGORY: Why do you think NBC made this decision?

JOHNSON: Well, I think NBC made the decision because of leadership.

You know, I know very well Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE, which is a partner in MSNBC, and GE is one of the most admired companies in the country. And they have employees, African-Americans and white employees, who recognize that to hold that mantle or that brand, they have to act as one of the most admired companies in the country. And I think it was no question that Jeffrey Immelt and his people, whether it reached his level or not, made the decision that this is important to us as a company to reflect the diversity of our employees. And therefore, when this kind of thing happens, whether it happens with a guy who makes us $10 million a year or a guy who sweeps the floors—this is not something they tolerate, and they did the right thing in letting him go.

GREGORY: This has become a national conversation. This incident has the country debating race, race relations, the racial divide, decency, our public discourse, and I wonder whether you think, as the founder of BET, that you and others in the black community also have a responsibility to look at some of the images on BET, some of the language in rap lyrics, like the word ho, and the b-word and the n-word that is replete in the lyrics of rap music, and say that has to be part of this national conversation as well.

JOHNSON: Yes, David, I think that African-Americans have always felt that we have a responsibility for our own destiny, and we will continue to hold that to be the case. And clearly, I join with Reverend Sharpton in saying that if anybody within the African-American community wants to hold a debate on how we treat ourselves, we ought to do it, and I‘ll be the first one to ante up a place to hold it and have that debate. And I did that when I was at BET.

I told the record industry, look, guys, if you guys want to stop making these kinds of video, believe me, I have no problems in not showing them. And when you talk to the artists, the creative people, it‘s up to you to stop this, and we‘ll be glad to show other products that you produce.

But comparing Don Imus to an artist in a music video is apples and oranges.

GREGORY: Why is that the case, in your judgment?

JOHNSON: Well, he held court on a show that was considered one of the

to be one of the highest platforms for political discourse. A show that was a haven for intellectuals to come in and talk about issues. A show where people will come on and announce their candidacy for the president of the United States, representing, in the case of Joe Biden, the Democratic Party, which has over 90 percent black support.

When you have someone who has that platform, it‘s far different from a comedy show, it‘s far different from a video show. And he should have known, with that kind of intellectual fire power as his guests, he should have known that to denigrate black women, the basketball players at Rutgers, in the way he did, and by extension, to basically say to all black America, you can‘t touch me. And not only did he say it, but his sidekick said it, and no one has said anything about him. It was like, we are so powerful because we have these white intellectuals who embrace us and come on our show, that we can say anything, and black America will simply roll over. Because it‘s about money, it‘s about political support, it‘s about being an intellectual opportunity for people to debate.

And as a black person, we—if he had said this—and David, this is true—if he had said this about Jewish Americans, you can ask anybody in black America, the feeling would have been he would have been off the network, not in two weeks, but the next day. And that‘s why black America feels so offended when our so-called...

GREGORY: It is worth pointing out, Mr. Johnson, that he has been for 30 years pretty tough on blacks and Jews and women and Catholics and all the rest. So I don‘t know if that‘s quite right.

JOHNSON: Well, here‘s the thing. At some point, when you say something and it just keeps, you know, scraping and scraping, at some point, it hits a vein, and the pain is so severe that you can no longer do it.

You know, people can point out that Mussolini made the trains run on time. You know, people could point out, you know, things about—I remember when Minister Farrakhan said Adolf Hitler was great in his wickedness, and all of a sudden people couldn‘t understand that.

The point is, at some point, you abuse your right to be in a public environment with your words. And that‘s whether you‘re black or whether you‘re white. You abuse that right. At some point, if this country is going to stand for anything other than just total people using words without disregard to the consequences, then you have to take a stand.

And I think black America, white America, and anyone who sees this as an uncontrolled, unthinking, racist remark has to take a stand.

GREGORY: All right. Robert Johnson, founder, of course, of Black Entertainment Television. Thank you very much for calling in with your views...

JOHNSON: Thank you, David.

GREGORY: ... and your reaction tonight.

Again, the news here is us: MSNBC has decided to take Don Imus off the air, simulcasting his show on MSNBC, “IMUS IN THE MORNING.” CBS is suspending him for two weeks without pay.

This is HARDBALL. We‘ll have more in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GREGORY: Coming up, NBC News will no longer air Don Imus‘ radio show on this network. More from our panel when HARDBALL returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP):

CAPUS: I‘ve received hundreds, if not thousands of emails, both internal and external, with people with very strong views about what should happen. I‘ve listened to those people with their comments. And many of them are people who have worked at NBC News for decades, people who put their lives on the line covering wars and things like that.

These comments were deeply hurtful to many, many people.

And we‘ve had any number of employee conversations, discussions, emails, phone calls. And when you listen to the passion and the people who come to the conclusion that there should not be any room for this sort of conversation and dialogue on our air, it was the only decision we could reach.

GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL. That was NBC News President Steve Capus in our conversation about the decision he made to take Don Imus off the air here at MSNBC. Reverend Al Sharpton, holding a press conference this hour, saying he will begin a protest against CBS Radio, to push CBS to do the same thing. We have not heard comment from Don Imus himself. WNBC in New York reporting that CBS is saying that Imus will not comment on MSNBC‘s decision. He had said that he would take the suspension of two weeks with dignity.

I‘m back with my panel now. We‘ve just spoken to Bob Johnson, founder of BET. Armstrong Williams, just some reaction to what you‘ve heard here the last few minutes.

WILLIAMS: You know, I actually think this is a good moment in our country, where we‘re having this debate, and I think a lot of good can come from this, if people are honest and if we adhere to the same moral standard.

I enjoyed what Bob Johnson had to say, but I was a little stunned that he said he went to the record companies and the record companies did not comply. He did not have to air those videos, and the way they exploit women on his network. I just thought he was a little disingenuous there.

GREGORY: And this is a question about—that Don Imus has raised, which is the word ho comes out of the hip-hop culture in the first place.

WILLIAMS: Reverend Sharpton, whom I respect as my friend, I mean, he even used the term “white interloper.” In order for them to have the moral authority on this issue, in order for us to make progress here, they must all look in their own homes.

And I don‘t agree with Bob Johnson, that if the African-American community decides that we need to look at this issue—if the African-American community and the rest of the country can decide Don Imus‘ fate, then the rest of the country should also sit in judgment of anybody else that used this kind of terminology and disrespects women and used the n-word and these derogatory terms.

I think Bob Johnson needs a reality check to realize that he needs to check his own house also, and see what he needs to do better to contribute to this national debate.

GREGORY: Clarence Page, do you think that Don Imus has—as Reverend Sharpton has suggested the last couple of days, by appearing publicly, has done himself in essentially? Has done a disservice to himself?

PAGE: Well, I think when you say appearing publicly, you mean by going around and apologizing?

GREGORY: On “The Today”—well, right, on “The Today” program, on his own program. In other words, has he made this worse for himself in some way?

PAGE: Well, no. I don‘t think he would have done the apologizing if things weren‘t already sinking rapidly underneath his feet. Remember last Friday, he gave one apology at the beginning of his program and thought that was going to be enough. By Monday, this had percolated up so that he was apologizing every hour. He goes on Al Sharpton‘s program like a national confessional. And by the end of the day, MSNBC and then CBS were giving him a two-week suspension.

The fact is, this has snowballed, and I think it‘s because, first of all, you have got this cheap shot at these wonderful young women at this college, who are, you know, not rich and famous or powerful, politically powerful celebrities, but just wonderfully admirable young Americans. And then you have got a slow news weekend, and then you‘ve got the Internet. And the general visceral reaction of people to these very negative words. I think that all compounded itself to where Don could see that he was in trouble. It turns out, indeed, he is.

GREGORY: Craig Crawford, you and I are both guests on the “IMUS IN THE MORNING” program. And you know, this may be a knock on us, but you can become sort of numb to the humor there. What made this different?

CRAWFORD: Well, I‘ve thought about this a lot, as I‘m sure you have, David. And you know, the segments I would do with him, none of that stuff was going on. And so it‘s, you know...

GREGORY: Well, that‘s right. That‘s the case with...

(CROSSTALK)

CRAWFORD: But that doesn‘t excuse it. It‘s just I wasn‘t always as aware of it. Although I listened to the show a lot, and so, you know—because the show was almost schizophrenic in a way. Because part of the show was the stuff we did, where you‘d talk about the news, and he‘d have newsmakers on. And then there were the comedy bits and the skits and the sports, which frankly, I have to admit, I don‘t pay much attention to sports, so I didn‘t pay attention to those either. And I think that‘s where a lot of this stuff that is so troublesome, so upsetting to people occurred.

So I think maybe I wasn‘t as aware, although I knew it. I mean, when I‘d go around the country and talk to people, you know, at book signings and things like that, and Imus fans would come up, so many of them would say, you know, I love this stuff that you do, I love the newsmaker, the senators, but I just wish he wouldn‘t do that other stuff. I wish Bernie wouldn‘t do the cardinal skit. You know, that makes my skin crawl.

And so I think his own audience was actually wishing that he wouldn‘t do some of those things. But they just weren‘t listening.

I think the problem is, you know, he started out as the original shock jock 30 years ago. And so—and it evolved after Howard Stern became so big into more of a serious news show, but they kept those elements of that early shock jock period in the show probably longer than they should have.

GREGORY: Jonathan, do you think that people will look at people in the media, at NBC and elsewhere, and a lot of white people, frankly, and say, you know what? You just—you‘ve become so numb to this kind of racist humor. You basically condone it. You accept it. And it takes something like this for you to say, whoa! Maybe that really shouldn‘t be part of our public discourse.

CAPEHART: Well, right now, because of the decision made by MSNBC, this will just be one less program that‘s adding that kind of humor and that kind of conversation to the discourse.

I think that, you know, to go back to Bob Johnson, he could have been part of the solution—just a tiny part, but he could have been a part of the solution. And I think right now, that the conversation that the nation is now engaged in, that Armstrong talked about, needs to move from Imus. Imus was a symptom of a larger problem. And the problem is, we have gotten to the point where the b-word, the n-word, ho and a whole lot of other words are now mainstream.

I spent this afternoon looking up rap lyrics from various artists, and after about a half an hour, I couldn‘t read anymore. I mean, these—and these are from popular artists. I‘m not going to name the names. I figure people can pretty much figure out who they are. But to think that on radio stations, that these songs are being played. And even when they play the clean version, there is nothing left to the imagination.

GREGORY: Clarence Page, let me talk about Imus for a little bit. I mean, this is a guy who is an addict, was a coke addict and a drunk. He did something in his life. He got sober. He made amends to people that he hurt. He made changes. And he made a difference in his life, and he made lots of differences. Children with cancer, with that ranch out there, supporting our troops with the Fallen Heroes Fund, supporting autism.

Why isn‘t it more appropriate that Imus uses this moment and uses himself to heal this wound publicly by yet again making amends to these young women, making changes to his program, and therefore, making a difference on this issue?

PAGE: Well, I suppose because he‘s done it so many times before. People, after a while, feel like, well, when is he going down this slope again?

He made the same argument back in 2000, when I first urged him to take a pledge over the air to avoid this kind of gutter humor. He doesn‘t need to do it. He is smarter than that.

But I think Craig is right. He definitely got into the habit over the years and just couldn‘t break away from it, even to the point of using Bernard as his alter ego, if you will...

GREGORY: Clarence, let me just interrupt you for a second. I just want to get—we‘re joined now on the phone by one of my bosses, Phil Griffin, who is vice president of NBC News and overseeing MSNBC and “The Today” program. Phil has also been at the center of all of these discussions with Don Imus.

Phil, are you on with us?

PHIL GRIFFIN, NBC SR. VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, hey, David.

GREGORY: Phil, what can you tell us about your conversations with Imus, how he reacted to this?

GRIFFIN: Look, he knew what was going on. You know, he was following the story. He knew that it hit a nerve in a big way. So honestly, his reaction was a little bit, I knew it was coming. And he said, look, I was responsible for those words, and that‘s why we‘re here, having this discussion right now. And that was his direct quote. You know, he feels terrible, but he understands the situation.

GREGORY: Is he still going to go forward and meet with the young ladies at Rutgers, Phil?

GRIFFIN: Yes, he is. I was also with Reverend...

GREGORY: Soaries.

GRIFFIN: ... Soaries, who is coordinating that. And he said it doesn‘t matter, that my show, the simulcast has been canceled, but he wants to reach out to the women. He knows that—he knows the pain he has caused.

You know, Don, you know, in his heart, knows that—just the nerve he has hit and the pain that he has caused these women. And I think he has a total understanding of it.

GREGORY: All right. Phil, thank you very much. Reverend Soaries is on the phone with us. Reverend, I have got about just 20 seconds left. I just want a comment from you quickly.

REV. DEFOREST SOARIES: Yes, sir. I think that Mr. Imus will probably meet with the women at Rutgers, and he will probably get a better sense of why this touched off such a nerve and how this really impacted these women. He‘ll be a better man having gone through this, but he‘ll be a better man without the platform of electronic television.

GREGORY: All right. Reverend Soaries, DeForest Soaries, thank you very much for joining us. Armstrong Williams, Craig Crawford, Jonathan Capehart and Clarence Page as well. Our coverage continues now on “COUNTDOWN” with Keith Olbermann. Again, MSNBC has taken Don Imus off the air. There will be more pressure for CBS Radio to do the same, according to Al Sharpton. And Keith Olbermann continues our coverage right now. Have a good evening.

On Hardball with Chris Matthews, April 10, 2007

Guests Clarence Page, Al Sharpton, Sabiyha Prince, Deforest Soaries talk with Guest Host, David Gregory
Transcript of Hardball for April 10, 2007:
Good evening. I‘m David Gregory, in tonight again for Chris. NBC News and CBS radio have suspended radio talk show host Don Imus for two weeks starting April 16, condemning his racist and sexist comments about the Rutgers women‘s basketball team. This morning, Imus appeared on NBC‘s “Today” and again apologized.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP):

DON IMUS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I am going to apologize to them and ask them for their forgiveness. I don‘t expect that, and I don‘t think they have any obligation to either forgive me or to accept my apology.

GREGORY: As we mentioned, today the young women at the center of the controversy, the Scarlet Knights, told reporters they will, indeed, meet with Don Imus. Later, we are going to talk with the Reverend Al Sharpton about the controversy and also take a larger look at this incident and what it says about race relations and decency in our country.

But first the background and HARDBALL‘s David Shuster with this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE):

DAVID SHUSTER, HARDBALL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the announcement from the Rutgers women‘s basketball team that Don Imus had been hoping for.

ESSENCE CARSON, RUTGERS BASKETBALL PLAYER: We have agreed to have a meeting with Mr. Don Imus. This meeting will be a private meeting at an undisclosed location in the near future.

SHUSTER: That means Imus will get an opportunity to explain and apologize in person for the comments he made last week on his broadcast.

IMUS: Oh, some rough girls from Rutgers. Man, they got tattoos and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some hard-core ho‘s.

IMUS: That‘s some nappy-headed ho‘s there, I‘m going to tell you that!

(LAUGHTER)

C. VIVIAN STRINGER, RUTGERS WOMEN‘S BASKETBALL COACH: It‘s not about the Rutgers women‘s basketball, it‘s about women. Are women ho‘s? Think about that. Would you have wanted your daughter to have been called that?

PAGE: Yesterday, NBC News announced that the simulcast of Imus‘s radio program on MSNBC will be suspended for two weeks starting next Monday because this week, the show is conducting a charity telethon. Imus reacted this morning on the “Today” show.

IMUS: I think it‘s appropriate, and I an going to try to serve it with some dignity and—a lot of dignity, if I can. I‘ve had a long relationship going back to 1971 with people at NBC and a long relationship with CBS. And when I talked with Phil Griffin last evening and he told me that he was—they were suspending me, I expressed to him that—how I felt about that and accepted it in the spirit in which it was—in which it was rendered.

SHUSTER: But when pressed by Matt Lauer about a pattern of racial humor on his program, Imus was defensive.

IMUS: This is a comedy show. I‘m not a newsman. This is not “Meet the Press.” We don‘t—anything we say—it‘s not an excuse, but context is important. There‘s a difference between premeditated murder and a gun going off accidentally. I mean, somebody still gets shot, but the charges are dramatically different.

SHUSTER: And Imus insisted his comments about the Rutgers team were not intended to be offensive.

IMUS: But it was comedy. It wasn‘t a malicious rant. I wasn‘t angry. I wasn‘t drunk. I wasn‘t stating some sort of philosophy. As I said yesterday morning, I‘m not a racist, I‘m—and I‘ve demonstrated that in my deeds, in my work. And if we can only cite three or four instances in a comedy program...

MATT LAUER, “TODAY”: Well, wait a second, Don...

IMUS: ... which is designed to push the envelope over 30 years—you know—what I did is made a stupid, idiotic mistake in a comedy context.

LAUER: Well, let me...

IMUS: I didn‘t open the microphone to say, This is what I think of these Rutgers women.

LAUER: Let me put it this way...

IMUS: Does it mean I should be excused for the remark? Absolutely not.

SHUSTER: Also on the “Today” show this morning, Reverend Al Sharpton, who has called for Imus to be fired.

REV. AL SHARPTON, NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK: What precedent are we setting now, that you can apologize every 10 years when you go over the line and maybe you‘ll get a two-week suspension? I think that this is something that is unhealthy for everyone in America, and he should be fired.

SHUSTER: Despite the joint appearance on the “Today” show, Don Imus attacked Sharpton for declining an invitation to appear on Imus‘s program following an Imus appearance yesterday on Sharpton‘s broadcast.

IMUS: I talked to Reverend Sharpton yesterday for two hours, Matt, and I told Phil Griffin and everybody else that I didn‘t intend—I invited Reverend Sharpton to appear on my program, and he didn‘t have the courage that I had.

SHARPTON: No, I decided I would not...

IMUS: Because I walked—I‘m talking, Reverend Sharpton!

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: I walked in his studio yesterday, and there were hundreds of people there. And my hands weren‘t shaking and I don‘t get up and run out of the studio every five minutes when the mikes went off. I sat there and I talked to Reverend Horgans (ph) like a man—Reverend Sharpton like a man, and he did not keep his word. I asked him to appear on my program. He said he didn‘t want to appear at the scene of the crime!

SHUSTER: As for Imus‘s request to meet with the Rutgers women...

IMUS: And I am going to apologize to them and ask them for their forgiveness. I don‘t expect that, and I don‘t think they any obligation to either forgive me or to accept my apology.

SHUSTER: The Rutgers players said they would wait to hear what Imus said before making any judgments, but they added that Imus has a lot of explaining to do.

HEATHER ZURICH, RUTGERS BASKETBALL PLAYER: And we were insulted, and yes, we were angry. Worst of all, my team and I did nothing to deserve neither Mr. Imus nor Mr. McGuirk‘s deplorable comments.

PAGE: A few of the players noted that the language used by Imus is used every day by some African-American hip-hop and rap artists. But the players quickly added...

CARSON: But that doesn‘t make it any more right for anyone to say it, not only Mr. Imus, but if I were to say it, it doesn‘t make it any more right. It doesn‘t matter if you‘re African-American or whether you‘re Caucasian, Asian. It really doesn‘t matter. All that matters is that it‘s wrong.

SHUSTER: But will they accept Imus‘s apology?

MATEE AJAVON, RUTGERS BASKETBALL PLAYER: Right now, I cant really say if we—you know, we have come to a conclusion of, you know, whether we will accept the apology. What I can say is that I think this meeting will be crucial.

SHUSTER (on camera): Amidst the ongoing protests against Don Imus and the questions about whether journalists, including those at this network, will continue to appear on his program, Imus today pledged to make changes. He said he would revamp his show, put on more African-American guests and talk more about issues of race.

I‘m David Shuster for HARDBALL in Washington.

GREGORY: David, thank you very much.

We go now to “The Chicago Tribune‘s” Clarence Page and “The Congressional Quarterly‘s” Craig Crawford. Welcome to you both. Thanks for being here.

I want to read a couple of things, Clarence, and then have you respond. Gwen Ifill, a colleague of ours who works for PBS, used to work for NBC News, wrote the following in a very thoughtful op-ed piece in “The New York Times.” Quote, “The sincerity”—and she‘s talking about the sincerity from Imus—“seems forced and suspect because he‘s done some version of this”—these comments, she means—“several times before.”

Next, this is an exchange you had with the I-man on his program back in 2000, and I‘m going to read through it for our audience and for you to see. Imus—this is—you introduced the idea of him taking a pledge here.

CLARENCE PAGE, “CHICAGO TRIBUNE”: Want me to do my part here?

(LAUGHTER)

GREGORY: “I, Don Imus”—Clarence Page—“do solemnly swear,” “do solemnly swear,” “that I will promise to cease all simian references to black athletes,” “that I will promise to cease all simian references”—he repeats it—“a ban on all references to non-criminal blacks as thugs, pimps, muggers and Colt 45 drinkers,” “I promise to do that.”

Clarence Page, you‘re here with us now. There was some laughter in the middle of this, but this was a serious...

PAGE: That was Bernard.

(LAUGHTER)

PAGE: That was Bernard in the background, yes.

GREGORY: This was a serious point you were making.

PAGE: Yes, it was, and I wanted to lighten it up a bit because this is a light show. You know, part of the problem here, David, is that Don‘s successful. He gets it both ways. He‘s a combination shock jock and morning political discussion leader.

GREGORY: Right.

PAGE: You know, he says he is—you know, he is an entertainer, not a newsman, but you know, he...

GREGORY: All right, but the point is...

PAGE: He does both.

(CROSSTALK)

PAGE: And so that‘s why I...

GREGORY: ... serious in making this pledge.

PAGE: That‘s why I wanted to get this in the right spirit of the program because at the time, this was the subject of—what, it was Tompaine.com had run a big piece about why are Washington‘s pundits supporting bigotry on Don Imus. They ran a quarter page ad in “The New York Times” op-ed page. And it quoted me saying, Well, I‘m concerned. I‘d like to talk to Don about this...

(CROSSTALK)

PAGE: So that‘s what led to all this.

GREGORY: All right. And now these comments, “nappy-headed ho‘s” is what he called these young women on the basketball team at Rutgers.

PAGE: Right.

GREGORY: Is he a racist or a serial offender, or both? What, in your mind?

PAGE: I like Don Imus personally. I can‘t read his heart and say if he‘s a racist. All I know is he says racist things from time to time. That‘s what I told him back in 2001, as he was telling me he wasn‘t a racist, et cetera. Gwen‘s right. There are echoes in his current series of apologies to what he was saying in 2001, on various other occasions.

Don‘s done some great things for a lot of black folks, for people of color, including me. When my book came out in ‘96, he gave me the kind of promo on the air there during his show that authors hunger for. I have nothing personally against him, but I have certainly been on the air talking about his racially inflammatory humor on the show, him and Bernard. It‘s all part of the package. So this is not new.

Now, you know, my old daddy always said, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Now that, you know, he‘s gone back on that pledge, I‘m even more troubled than I was before.

GREGORY: Craig Crawford, is it time for Imus to go?

CRAIG CRAWFORD, “CONGRESSIONAL QUARTERLY,” MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST:

Not at all. I don‘t see how that helps anything. I would say this man—you know, in my experience on the show—I‘ve done it nearly 70 times in the last three years—this—his heart is as big as his mouth, and the mouth gets him in trouble, as it has now.

(LAUGHTER)

CRAWFORD: And I think there‘s an opportunity here. I was struck by how these students, these Rutgers students—they were so reasonable and calm and willing to listen and try to understand, hard as it might be for them, what his motivations were. And they are going to meet with him. And tell you the truth, I think a lot of us adults who are talking about this ought to just step back and let these 20-year-olds...

GREGORY: All right, well, so...

(CROSSTALK)

GREGORY: ... if this is a positive meeting—I mean, Don Imus—we both know him, we all know him—Certainly sounds contrite to me, that he gets it. This is going to be a tough meeting. Does this gesture mean something important, Clarence?

PAGE: Oh, it means that he has escalated things. And so has the public, in my view. You know, I haven‘t been invited back on the show, by the way, since the pledge, so I can‘t—I haven‘t had further discussions with him.

GREGORY: Do you think that was the reason?

PAGE: Maybe you got my slot, Craig.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

GREGORY: Is that a reaction to that? Did he feel embarrassed by that?

PAGE: I have no idea, you know?

(CROSSTALK)

PAGE: ... when he broke some bones on the ranch, I sent him a get well card, but I haven‘t talked to him, though, since I was on the show. And I mean, what‘s important is not whether I‘m on the show or not. I think what‘s important here is the show itself and how it‘s conducted. The fact is, he‘s gotten away with more than a lot of other shock jocks have in terms of—the Greaseman, used to be here in D.C., and various others lost their jobs over just one case like this.

And now finally—you know, he thought he was going to get by with the one apology last Friday. As of Monday, he was apologizing all day long, going to Al Sharpton‘s confessional, if you will. And obviously, you know, for CBS and NBC to drop him for two weeks, it‘s a slap on the wrist in one sense, but the fact that it‘s kind of a slap at all is serious. It shows that there‘s some teeth behind this, as there should be.

GREGORY: But Craig, you feel a little bit differently here. You think that people are overblowing this, that he‘s apologized, that we should move on.

CRAWFORD: I think in the context of this show—I know, as you know say, that much of it is serious commentary. And when they do the sports, as they were doing here, that‘s where you see more to the comedy elements, some of the skits they do. It‘s not just racial. We see jokes about Catholics, about Jewish people, gays, I mean, and my argument would be that when you stifle that kind of speech, when you stifle it, you‘re not dealing with the sentiment behind it. And to actually say someone should be fired for making jokes about this kind of stuff doesn‘t really get us down the road toward discussing what‘s behind it and how—how...

PAGE: I‘m not calling for his firing, but if he were fired, what would happened, Craig?

CRAWFORD: Well, I think he‘d become a martyr and...

PAGE: What would happen, Craig? He‘d get a job someplace else, wouldn‘t he.

CRAWFORD: Yes, probably.

PAGE: Of course he would. Of course he would.

CRAWFORD: And—and...

PAGE: Or he‘d go to satellite like Howard Stern.

(CROSSTALK)

CRAWFORD: ... is better off if Imus goes forward, if he gets to know these students, they get to know him. When he takes up a cause, as we all know, he puts his heart into it. I think he will here, not just to save his job, but I think he‘s—I disagree with Gwen. I think his—his remorse is genuine, and I think he will go forward and take up this cause and do some things that will make a big difference, more of a difference than if he were fired.

PAGE: That would be great, but let‘s not feel sorry for Don. I mean, Don Imus is a really—if he wasn‘t as successful as he is, NBC, CBS—you know, well, how about two weeks, Don? I mean, that‘s what it looks like to me. I don‘t see him being severely punished. But I think that he is contrite, and I think he does want to do good. And he has done good with his ranch, with the kids out there who have cancer, autistic kids. All of this...

GREGORY: Is there room for...

PAGE: As I told him, that doesn‘t give you a license to...

(CROSSTALK)

GREGORY: Is there room for him to refashion this program in a way that can heal this wound?

PAGE: Well, I don‘t know if it has to be refashioned necessarily. But I just think you can‘t have it both ways. You know, I think it‘s—the fair thing is for—if you‘re going to try to be a shock jock, you ought to be treated like a shock jock. That‘s what happens. And—but he does bring on great, reputable folks like Craig and various others, you know, who help to give him some credibility, and he helps to expand our audiences and all. You know, everybody wins in that arrangement. But you know, a host should not embarrass people who appear on the show. And when you go and embarrass yourself in this kind of a fashion, he‘s now put people who want to appear on the show on the spot. I understand Cal Ripken‘s dropped out of an engagement...

CRAWFORD: Yes, I—I think—you know, two things. You know,

first, I think, you know, getting into the—you know, the actual words

that he used, he was wrong and he should be punished for that and is being

punished. But I think further discussion as he goes down the road on this

you know, some of these terms, particularly the term “ho,” comes from gangsta rap.

PAGE: That‘s right.

CRAWFORD: And that needs to be condemned...

(CROSSTALK)

PAGE: And it is, too.

CRAWFORD: ... and discussed...

PAGE: I just did a column last Sunday I commend to your attention...

(CROSSTALK)

PAGE: ... Sharpton has, too, Jesse Jackson...

(CROSSTALK)

CRAWFORD: You know, that is a discussion I think whites and blacks need to have, rather than just saying someone should be fired for having said that. I think to be a racist, you have to hate black people, and I do not believe Don Imus hates black people.

GREGORY: I‘m going to let that be the last word. Thank you very much, to Clarence Page and Craig Crawford.

Coming up, the Reverend Al Sharpton. We‘ve been talking about him.

He is calling for Don Imus to be fired, and he‘s coming right here next.

You‘re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP):

KIA VAUGHN, RUTGERS BASKETBALL PLAYER: I‘m not a ho. And at that, I‘m a woman, and I‘m someone‘s child, and you know, it hurts a lot. It does hurt. And there‘s a lot that should be said. There‘s a lot that I want to say, but you know, you can‘t say it. And I would like to speak to him personally and, you know, express how I feel face to face and ask him, After you‘ve met me as a person, do you feel in this category that I‘m still a ho, as a woman and as a black African-American woman, at that? I achieved a lot, and unless they have given this name, a ho, a new definition, then that is not what I am.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP):

IMUS: I am going to apologize to them and ask them for their forgiveness. I don‘t expect that, and I don‘t think they have any obligation to either forgive me or to accept my apology.

GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL. That, of course, Don Imus on the “Today” program this morning, apologizing once again for his comments about the Rutgers women‘s basketball team. On Monday, he sat down with Reverend Al Sharpton to apologize on the reverend‘s radio program. And Reverend Al Sharpton joins us now. Welcome.

SHARPTON: Thank you.

GREGORY: Imus has apologized, and now the Rutgers lady basketball team will meet with him. What has to come out of that meeting for you to be satisfied?

SHARPTON: It‘s not about coming out of the meeting. I think that that‘s a private meeting is between he and those that he victimized with his statements. Our drive, from National Action Network and other organizations, is to deal with how the airwaves and those that use them must be accountable. That will not be impacted by a private meeting. That will be impacted by how the stations, how advertisers and how FCC deals with the policy of the airwaves.

GREGORY: But Reverend, you said on your program yesterday you were eager to see what the outcome of that meeting was.

SHARPTON: No. He said he wanted to be forgiven and he did not want to be perceived as racist. I said, I‘ll see what happens in that meeting. I did not say that would determine how we would deal with dealing with the airwaves and how they ought to be policed. That‘s absurd.

GREGORY: All right.

Your view on the suspension by NBC News and CBS Radio is what?

SHARPTON: I think that it is too little and I think it‘s too late.

We must remember that Mr. Imus made these statements Wednesday. Had the groups not raised this by Friday and over the weekend, I doubt if any action would have been taken at all. He barely apologized the day after. Then, he got a little more specific Friday. He really did not start apologizing until we raised public attention. And that is the point.

We cannot allow the airwaves to be used in a blatantly sexist and racist way, and unless somebody catches you, it‘s all right.

GREGORY: All right.

SHARPTON: When you heard today those young ladies talk about how this hurt them, how this will affect them the rest of their lives, I mean, it is amazing to me how people will sit up and just objectively discuss somebody else‘s pain.

GREGORY: Reverend, let‘s—let‘s—you have called for him to be fired—you just reiterated that now—taken off the airways.

Listen to what Imus said this morning during your appearance, your joint appearance, on the “Today” program, about what changes he would make to his program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “THE TODAY SHOW”):

DON IMUS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I have a record of a—of a relationship with the African-American community, whether Reverend Sharpton likes it or not.

I am a—I am a good and decent person. And I have been conducting a comedy show for 30 years. I can come back, and serve, hopefully—will hopefully serve this—the suspension with dignity, and come back and create a dialogue.

One of the things that we‘re going to—that we‘re—we‘re going to do, that we have been talking about for years...

MATT LAUER, CO-HOST: Quickly, if you can, Don. I‘m running out of time.

IMUS: There ought to be a black person on this show every single day to add some perspective. And—and we ought to have more black guests. And—and me and the rest of white America ought to understand what is going on in the black community. And I will make an effort to do that.

GREGORY: Reverend, if—if Don Imus could make good on that commitment, would you support him staying on the air?

SHARPTON: First of all, he made the same pledge, as you just said, with Clarence Page. I mean, why don‘t we just play his last apology and last confession, and he wouldn‘t have to get up so early in the morning and do “The Today Show”?

Second of all, am I supposed to applaud, after 30 years, he says, let‘s put a black in the studio? I mean, what are we talking about here?

This is not about Imus. This is about accountability on the airwaves.

GREGORY: No. OK, I take that point. But is this also not an opportunity to put the issues that you care about, confronting this kind of racist talk and sexist talk, on the public airwaves, with a huge, large platform? Can you see him playing a positive role? And if—if—NBC and CBS does not listen to you, and he stays on the air, would you agree to be part of his program, as a commentator?

SHARPTON: I think the—I think the larger—No, I would not.

The largest—or the larger stage, the larger picture, I think, cannot include that, if someone misuses the airwaves, that all they have to do is make a tour of apologies, and then it‘s business as usual.

I—I—I see people sincerely struggling to try and come and set a bigger picture here, but they can‘t put in the picture there‘s no penalty for the racist, sexist use of the airways. That is what everyone seems to miss. This is not about Imus. This is about accountability and a standard on the airwaves that protects citizens from those airways being used in a racist, biased, sexist manner.

GREGORY: Let me ask you a question, based on your standing in the community, as a politician, as a former candidate for the presidency. Do you believe in redemption?

SHARPTON: Oh, absolutely.

I think that there has to be redemption. I have—as I said this morning on “The Today Show,” a man of a different race, a white man, stabbed me once for leading a nonviolent march. I not only forgave him. I went to jail and met with him and forgave him. But I didn‘t say he shouldn‘t pay for the crime.

There‘s a difference between redemption and amnesty. A lot of people are not talking about redemption. They‘re talking about amnesty.

GREGORY: But, in your case, as critics would point out, you didn‘t go as far as Imus in a controversy that had to do with you and the Tawana Brawley case, a woman who the court...

SHARPTON: Nor did I castigate a whole race of people.

GREGORY: I‘m sorry. If I could...

(CROSSTALK)

GREGORY: Sir, can I...

SHARPTON: Nor did I castigate a whole race of people.

(CROSSTALK)

GREGORY: I just want to finish the question.

You—you didn‘t go as far as apologizing to the people who you hurt through that incident. This was, the courts have concluded, a hoax, accusations against whites by a young black woman about a race-based assault. A court ordered you to pay restitution for a defamation suit against people‘s whose reputation you hurt. You didn‘t apologize for that.

SHARPTON: And I still don‘t apologize. This was a case, as you said, of a young lady accusing people of doing something to her.

To compare that to a man castigating a whole race—nobody came to him, like this young lady came to me. He was not talking about did he believe in a case.

So, the—to the extremes people will go to compare an individual case, a civil case that, when the courts ruled...

GREGORY: Right. I‘m not—but, Reverend, I‘m not comparing the cases.

SHARPTON: Wait a minute. You wanted me to let you...

GREGORY: I just wanted to ask the question.

SHARPTON: You wanted me to let you ask it. Let me answer.

GREGORY: OK.

SHARPTON: And to compare that shows how far people will reach. This man was not talking about a specific case, with some information somebody gave him, whether you believe the information or not.

This man was talking about a race of people and a sex of people. There is absolutely no comparison. And, when the courts ruled against us, we paid that. That case happened 20 years ago. We‘re not talking about that.

What you are talking about is—is maligning a race, and him not having to pay for it.

GREGORY: Well, I‘m not—I am not talking about it. The question has to do with...

SHARPTON: Oh, I thought you were the one talking.

GREGORY: ... redemption.

SHARPTON: Maybe somebody else...

(CROSSTALK)

GREGORY: No, sir, I don‘t think that is not fair to talk about that I‘m talking amnesty. I am asking a question about your belief in redemption and people whose reputations you hurt, people that you hurt...

SHARPTON: Well, if I felt...

(CROSSTALK)

GREGORY: ... that you haven‘t apologized for.

SHARPTON: If I felt—if I believed...

GREGORY: And you are a strong person in middle of this debate.

SHARPTON: If I believed that young lady was telling the truth, as I do, what am I apologizing for?

And how do you compare that to a man condemning a whole race? Did I go and condemn a whole race of people? Or did we say we believed this young lady‘s statement about an individual? I don‘t how you even compare the two.

GREGORY: All right.

We‘re going to take a break here, the Reverend Al Sharpton staying with us—when we come back, questions about the larger questions raised by this incident.

Then, coming up later: a look at race relations in this country, how far we still have to go.

You are watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

We are back with the Reverend Al Sharpton.

Reverend, I have got just about a minute-and-a-half here. But I want to ask you a larger question.

If there is a national conversation that has started as a result of this incident, what is it and what should it be?

SHARPTON: I think the national conversation should be, how do we hold those that use the public airways accountable?

I think people have the right to free speech. I think we have the right to free comedy. I do not think they can use public airways recklessly. I do not that think we can have regulators in government that call some things indecent and other things permissible.

We need to have a conversation on what is permitted. And I think that this Imus incident will bring us to that conversation.

GREGORY: Imus challenged you during the “Today” program today about taking on the black community, about where the kind of language like “ho” originates in the hip-hop culture.

He may be an imperfect vehicle to bring that point up to you, in—in your estimation, in a lot of people‘s estimation.

Is that a fair point? And what can you do to advance that, to challenge the black community on that—on the use of that language within the black community, within the hip-hop community?

SHARPTON: The only reason it is not fair is because we have been dealing with that for some time.

I have been one that has been very vocal, as I think was stated in the segment earlier by Clarence Page and them, about the use of the N-word, the use of ho by people of my own community. I—I was one that was very upset with the movie “Barbershop” that denigrated black icons like Rosa Parks.

I only think him challenging me showed that he has not been in touch with what is going on. I think that there is a place that we need to have that discussion. It is wrong for anybody to call anyone a ho. It is wrong for anybody to use the N-word. I think that should not be used as an excuse to cover Imus, because I think, if you don‘t deal with Imus, then you lose the moral authority to join people like me in dealing with some of those bad elements of gangster rap—not all rap, but gangster rap.

You can‘t have it both ways. If you‘re going to join us in saying that these young artists ought to stop it, then you have got join us in stopping Imus.

GREGORY: The Reverend Al Sharpton—Reverend, thank you very much for coming on tonight.

SHARPTON: Thank you.

GREGORY: Up next: the big picture that we have been talking about.

We will talk right here about where we are with race and gender in our current politics and in this country, what role all of this plays in the 2008 election, and more about this conversation that Reverend Sharpton talked about Americans having as a result of this incident—when HARDBALL returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DARBY DUNN, CNBC CORRESPONDENT: I am Darby Dunn with your CNBC “Market Wrap.”

The Dow Jones industrial average ended higher for an eighth straight session, its longest winning streak in four years. The Dow gained more than four-and-a-half points, the S&P 500 up almost four, and the Nasdaq almost eight-and-a-half.

Dow component Alcoa kicking off earning season after the closing bell, reporting first-quarter profit jumping nearly 9 percent—however, earnings fell short of analyst estimates. In after-hours trading, Alcoa shares are up fractionally.

Oil prices rising slightly today, climbing 38 cents in New York, closing at $61.89 a barrel.

And another sign of woe in the housing market—D.R. Horton, the nation‘s biggest homebuilder, says second-quarter orders are down 37 percent. That is due in part to steep declines in California and the Southwest.

That‘s it from CNBC, first in business worldwide—now back to

HARDBALL.

GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL. I‘m David Gregory, in for Chris tonight.

There are larger questions coming about of the reaction to Don Imus‘ words. What does it tell us about race and decency in our country right now?

In a moment, we‘re going to talk with Reverend DeForest Soaries, who is going to moderate this meeting we have been telling you about between the Rutgers players and Don Imus.

But, first, let‘s bring in “Newsweek”‘s Jonathan Alter, who is an NBC News contributing correspondent. And we are also joined here in the studio by Sabiyha Prince, an anthropology professor at American University.

Welcome to you both, professor Prince and Jonathan Alter.

(CROSSTALK)

SABIYHA PRINCE, ANTHROPOLOGY PROFESSOR, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Hi.

GREGORY: Jonathan, let me start with you.

We talked a little bit earlier on the phone about whether this incident has created a race moment for America. Do you think that is the case? And how would you define that?

JONATHAN ALTER, NBC NEWS CONTRIBUTING CORRESPONDENT: I think it has created what you could call a teachable moment, the same way that, a couple of weeks ago, when Elizabeth Edwards‘ cancer recurred and Tony Snow‘s did, you know, we had a kind of a national conversation about surviving cancer.

And I this does give us a chance to talk about the coarsening of discourse in America, about accountability. As—as Reverend Sharpton said, what does accountability mean? Does it necessarily mean firing the person? Or is sometimes changed behavior enough form of—of accountability?

You know, David, in the YouTube culture that we have now, everything that somebody says is going to get replayed, and replayed again. And the question becomes, what is the response?

And I think something that has happened in the—just in the last couple of years, there has been such a negative reaction against President Bush‘s failure to apologize, failure to seem like he is being accountable to where the people are, that we have got more of a thirst for people apologizing when they screw up, and then changing their behavior as a result of having been called to account.

GREGORY: Professor Prince, let me pose that same question to you.

Is this a moment here, a teachable moment, a race moment, call it what you will?

PRINCE: Well, I think, David, that the history of the United States has been punctuated by a number of race moments.

So, the question becomes, what are we going to do with this, and where do we go from here? I would agree that, if we use this as a chance to perhaps educate America about the history of diverse peoples—for example, taking this Imus case, there‘s a historical context of African-American women being animalized, of African-American men being likened to animals, a dehumanization, if you will.

There is a precedent for that. It has happened on numerous occasions. And, perhaps, if—we can use this opportunity to share with America some of the literature about this context, a broader context, and about the experience of women, and the works of black feminists and other scholars, who have a lot to say on these topics.

GREGORY: It was also something about this incident.

It was not—as—as condemned as it is in—in hip-hop songs and rap music, where these artists talk about hos in a general sense, which has been condemned, this was, unfortunately, the specific application of that term to a group of young women who are exceptional young women, good students, and terrific athletes. And it really sort of woke people up and said, hey, wait a minute. This is really out of bounds.

PRINCE: I agree with you. So this is pointing to issues sexism, as well as racism, and how those things intersect. These are athletes. Haven‘t we not seen in the past women athletes being characterized as not being feminine, as somehow not being women. That is not at all appropriate and we need to get at the root of some of these things.

GREGORY: We have been looking at these pictures of the players and the coach. I want to listen to the Rutgers coach, Vivian Stringer, and what she had to say. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP):

VIVIAN STRINGER, RUTGERS WOMEN‘S BASKETBALL COACH: The truth of the matter is that it is not even black and white. The color is green. The color is green. You see, because if we can tolerate as a society what has just taken place, the remarks that have been directed toward young women, I do not know how anyone could have heard this and not been personally hurt and offended.

GREGORY: I also want to bring in the Reverend Deforest Soaries, who will moderate the meeting between Don Imus and the players from Rutgers. Reverend, welcome.

REV. DEFOREST SOARIES, WILL MODERATE IMUS/RUTGERS MEETING: Thank you very much for having me.

GREGORY: Talk about this meeting that is going to occur. You‘ve been talking to Imus. You‘ve been talking to the players and the coach, and the folks at Rutgers. What is going to happen at this meeting?

SOARIES: Well Mr. Imus has confessed, as it were, of his sin or his crime. What seems to be in disagreement is whether or not there should be any sentence. The remarkable outcome of this, from the Rutgers women‘s perspective, is that these young women, 17, 18, 19 years old, see the need to have a dialogue with Mr. Imus.

They could be so bitter or so hurt that they would simply dismiss him or they could be so angry that they would want to retaliate. But they‘ve decided—

GREGORY: To say nothing of their parents, by the way.

SOARIES: I mean, this is a level of maturity that I have not seen in recent years, particularly around very volatile race and gender issues. And so in this meeting Mr. Imus will have a chance to say directly to them what he has said to the public, and that is “I‘m sorry.” He will also have a chance to answer questions that they would like to probe, in terms of who he really is.

He has said it is important for America to know who he is, but it should start with the persons that were victims of his ugly conversation. They then will have an opportunity to share with him exactly how they feel. I have said to Mr. Imus, I am not sure he understands the depth of complexity that he has caused in these ladies‘ lives. This is more than a passing insult. This is a deep stain, which one player said would be a scar for the rest of her life.

We will have a dialogue. He will have an opportunity to express his views; they theirs. And then we will see what the next step should be.

GREGORY: Reverend, we are talking here about whether there is a larger important conversation to have as a country, about the power of words, about decency and about racism. And I think you said on Reverend Sharpton‘s program yesterday that for a lot of black people in this country, this may have been a confirmation to them to their sort of deep cynical belief that white people do not like them. It may have been a kind of ugly confirmation of that.

SOARIES: What‘s interesting is that pundits and leaders have a tendency to think in terms of left and right. And left would be more progressive and liberal. Right would be more conservative. And, in that sense, this becomes an enigma, because Mr. Imus is traditionally identified with the left. And one would have to imagine, how could somebody who supports black children, who supports black causes, who has been a philanthropist, really say those kinds of words and then admit he has no idea from whence they came.

This speaks to a deeper problem that we explore in black America, quite often, and that is that there is a deep fault of racism that exists, and it is like Anthrax. It will kill you, but you can‘t be seen. Every now and then it emerges, and we act surprised, but I think until we have a genuine conversation about gender and race and about green—that‘s what Coach Stringer was trying to get at.

The fact is, in this country, the problem is not race or gender. The problem is that we will do anything to earn a dollar. And if it exploits people or hurts young people, it does not seem to matter as much.

GREGORY: Reverend Soaries, Jonathan Alter, and Dr. Sabiyha Prince all staying with us. We‘re going to take a short break and come back and continue this conversation. You are watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP):

BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: I am the father of a daughter who is in college. I can guess at some of your rage and anger, but I can‘t know all of it. Can you really turn this into a positive and redemption? Can this be the lesson from this, some day?

STRINGER: I hope so. And I think that with all things that are bad, I do not think bad can overcome—I don‘t think that evil can overcome good. These young people are good. What he did was evil. But I need everybody‘s help. We need everybody‘s help.

GREGORY: That was C. Vivian Stringer, the coach of Rutgers, speaking to Brian Williams, who interviewed the players as well as Coach Stringer. You can see more of Brian‘s interview on NBC Nightly News on your NBC station later today.

We are back with “Newsweek‘s” Jonathan Alter, and Professor Sabiyha Prince, and the Reverend Soaries, who will moderate the meeting between Don Imus and the players from Rutgers. Jonathan Alter, you wanted to make a point. Go ahead.

ALTER: Well, I was just going to say that I think there is a kind of an interesting power relationship here that is also come into view. You know, Don Imus is a powerful broadcaster, at least he has been. And he will now be judged and his fate will determined by how these young politically powerless, until now, women react to him. And I think there‘s something that is exquisitely American about that. It is almost like a form of our jury system, where his fate will depend on how these young women react, what their view is toward redemption, towards punishment, towards some of these very complex and deep issues about how we deal with bad behavior and racist words in our society.

GREGORY: Professor Prince, do you think that there is a racial divide, in terms of how people evaluate this?

PRINCE: Undoubtedly, and that is something that I think probably disturbed me perhaps even more than the comments themselves. And what I‘m referring to would be the responses to people, in particular I have to say powerful white people in the media, and in politics, and particularly males. There has been this excuse, this discussion about, well, he is a friend of mine, and I don‘t think he a bad person. And I have to wonder if the ethnic group that was slurred in such a way was not African American, perhaps another group, perhaps another group that has a history of --

GREGORY: Jews, for instance?

PRINCE: That would be a good analogy I think. What would be the response from individuals like John McCain, individuals like Ed Schultz. Barbara Walters, I think, has weighed in. James Carville.

(CROSS TALK)

ALTER: He has done this kind of thing to Jews. I am Jewish. I have heard him call people, you know, in very unflattering terms—refer to our Jewish background. He hasn‘t done it to me, but I have heard him do to other people. It is in the nature of the show, so it is simply not accurate to say that if the show were on the other foot, and he were attacking other ethnic and religious groups, people would react differently.

What is different about this, just so we are really clear, and, I think, why this is really a problem, and why it was such a deplorable thing for him to say, is that on his show, when he goes after people, almost all of the time, it is powerful people in the media, in politics. They can take it. They are public figures. We want that robust debate, even when it does go a little bit over the line.

What is not acceptable is to do it to people who are powerless, who have done nothing wrong and are not public figures.

GREGORY: Reverend Soaries, let me ask you, you have talked to Imus. Do you think he gets it? Do you think he is surprised by some of the reaction or do you think he understands this?

SOARIES: I think he gets it now. The problem is he did not get it then, and when you get it retroactively, you can‘t withdraw the pain. In order to have a civil society, we must have moral consensus. And moral consensus then compels us to call a spade a spade, whether the spade is from our tribe or not.

I think our divide today is not between so much black and white, but between just a generic consensus over what is acceptable and unacceptable in civil society. When African-Americans become as angry about anti-Semitism as we are racism, then I think we are growing up. In America, we have not grown up, and we have allowed profit driven media to drive wedges between us. So we are living below our Homo Sapiens status.

GREGORY: And, Professor Prince, quick reaction to this: Imus‘s claim that has to be seen in the context of comedy.

PRINCE: It think that‘s completely absurd. First of all, he was not funny. So let‘s just start there. Comedy is no excuse to disparage people and to dehumanize people. And so I agree with the reverend that we need to arrive at some sort of standards. And let me just cut off at the knees folks who may want to make comparisons with perhaps the Chris Rocks and the Dave Chappelles. I think we‘re talking a little bit about apples and oranges, because these people are making political commentary and they are speaking historically from a place where people have not had the power to critique white people and to critique white privilege.

GREGORY: I just have to take a quick break here. We will come right back.

(CROSS TALK)

GREGORY: Reverend, I‘m sorry. I‘ve got to take a break here. We have a satellite issue, which is cutting us off a little bit. We‘re going to come back with our guests. You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

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RUDY GIULIANI ®, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My reaction is it was wrong. It was very wrong. He has acknowledged that. I have to say that I generally feel about things like that, when people make big mistakes like that, what I look to is do they understand it, do they acknowledge it, do they seem to be really sorry for it, and are they going to make a pledge not to do it again. He seems to have done those things.

GREGORY: Rudy Giuliani today on the campaign trail, talking about Don Imus. I want to thank the Reverend Deforest Soaries, who we‘re going to lose. He‘s got another interview to do. He will moderate a meeting between Don Imus and the Rutgers women‘s basketball team. “Newsweek‘s” Jonathan Alter and American University Professor Sibiyha Prince are still with us.

Jonathan, let me start with you. As a kind of concluding point in this conversation, about what this incident tells us about the kind of conversation we need to have as Americans, about race and decency in our politics and in our public discourse. And by that I mean has there been a kind of defining down of decency, that has gone on to the point where it took something like this to be a tipping point to really wake people up and say, this is way out of bounds?

ALTER: Absolutely. You know, what happened is that we had the rise of what was called political correctness in the 1980s, and then there was a backlash against PC behavior. And everybody kind of said -- or lots of people said, hey, lighten up. You know, don‘t go to the ramparts every time somebody said something a little bit offensive or objectionable.

And so that mentality existed in this country for a long time, that

sort of lighten up, anti-PC mentality. Then something like this comes

along, where somebody says something that is not politically incorrect, but

actually much, much, much worst, and it reminds us that that backlash

against PC may have gone too far, and that the people who talk about

sensitivities to language within bounds have a real point. The question is

GREGORY: You know what, I am simply out of time. Jonathan Alter and Sibiyha Prince, thank you very much. Join us again tomorrow night at 5:00 and 7:00 eastern for more HARDBALL. Right now it‘s time for “TUCKER."