Guests DeForest Soaries, Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, Elijah Cummings, Eugene Robinson, Pat Buchanan, Tom Oliphant, Chris Dodd talk with guest host, David Gregory
Transcript of Hardball:
DAVID GREGORY, GUEST HOST: Tonight, breaking news. CBS radio has fired Don Imus one day after NBC News decided to do the same, to take him off the air at this network. All the latest information. Let‘s play HARDBALL. Good evening once again. I‘m David Gregory, in for Chris Matthews.
This is HARDBALL.
And this is by day two a media death sentence for Don Imus. He has been fired now by CBS radio one day after MSNBC took him off the air at this network. There is a statement from CBS, which I‘m going to read, that came to us in the last 20 minutes from chief executive officer Leslie Moonves, and I‘m going to read it.
“CBS today announced its decision to cease broadcasting the ‘Imus in the Morning‘ radio program effective immediately on a permanent basis. From the outset, I believe all of us have been deeply upset and revulsed by the statements that were made on our air about the young women who represented Rutgers University in the NCAA women‘s basketball championship with such class, energy and talent.” That is a quote from CBS president and chief executive officer Leslie Moonves announcing the decision.
The statement goes on—I continue to read—“Those who have spoken out with us the last few days represent people of good will from all segments of our society, all races, economic groups, men and women alike. In our meetings with these concerned groups, there has been much discussion of the effect language like this has on our young people, particularly young women of color trying to make their way in this society. That consideration has weighed most heavily on our minds as we made our decision, as have the man e-mails, phone calls and personal discussions we have had with our colleagues across the CBS Corporation and our many other constituencies.
“ ‘Imus in the Morning‘ “—the statement goes on now—“was carried on 61 stations across the United States and distributed over the Westwood One radio network. The cancellation of the program comes after statements Mr. Imus made about the young women who comprise the Rutgers University women‘s basketball team, which reached the finals of the NCAA women‘s basketball championship this spring.”
Moonves concluded, “I want to thank all of those who came to see us to express their views. We are now presented with a significant opportunity to expand on our record on issues of diversity, race and gender. We intend to seize that opportunity.”
That is the breaking news, a statement from CBS CEO Leslie Moonves.
We‘re joined by phone now by the Reverend DeForest Soaries, who has become familiar to this audience. He is a go-between, among other hats he wears, between Don Imus and the Rutgers team. Reverend Soaries, your reaction to this? And what can you tell us about Don Imus‘s reaction, as well?
REV. DEFOREST SOARIES, MODERATING IMUS RUTGERS MEETING: Well, NBC took the lead, and I feel respect for the decision made on yesterday. CBS joined today after, I think, just overwhelming public sentiment, and quite frankly, embarrassing media exposes that made it very difficult for them to identify with...
GREGORY: Like what? Are you talking about the Bob Herbert column in “The New York Times today, which referenced...
SOARIES: I‘m talking specifically about the Bob Herbert column and...
GREGORY: All right, just so everybody knows, that referenced a “60 Minutes” piece on CBS 10 years ago, where Imus in that interview used the “N” word, and there was a question on whether he had members of his staff who are there to do jokes using the “N” word. That‘s the background on that.
So you think this became an issue today?
GREGORY: Yes. And I think—the issues of comedy, of civility, of decency are very important issues, but we cannot get to the larger discussion until we focus on the very specific but unfortunate acts of Mr. Imus last week aimed at some very specific people. We are concerned about the global issues and all of those philosophical—the things that need to happen. My concern is that a member of my church who coaches 10 fine athletes was attacked and defamed by someone without regard to the impact it would make on their lives. These young women will have to wrestle with these issues.
And so they happen to be African- American. They happen to be female. But when this kind of very focused and targeted bigotry is aimed at specific people, not large groups of people, but specific people, then I think you‘ve got to—you‘ve got to respond in kind.
GREGORY: Reverend...
SOARIES: I‘m a Christian. I believe in forgiveness, but I also believe in justice, and justice requires that consequences are attached to our behavior.
GREGORY: Reverend, have you spoken to Don Imus?
SOARIES: I have not spoken to him in the last two hours. I expect to speak to him within the next two hours because when I left him last night, the question that I had posed to him was this: Now that NBC has dropped you, if CBS also drops you before the meeting with the Rutgers women, are you still interested in having a meeting? And his response was that he definitely wanted to meet with the Rutgers women and there was nothing that could happen to prevent him from wanting to do that. And I want to confirm that before the evening ends so that I can proceed with the plans that we had agreed to just two or three hours ago.
GREGORY: Will that meeting happen today?
SOARIES: Pardon me?
GREGORY: Will the meeting between Imus and the women happen today?
SOARIES: Well, the next step for me is to talk to Mr. Imus about his desire to meet and then to talk to the team about the status of the meeting in their minds—I‘m certain that the team still wants to meet—and then take it from there. Needless to say, we have committed to this being both a private meeting and a secret meeting. We don‘t want to turn it into a public spectacle. And so when the meeting takes place and whether it will take place will not be disclosed. The fact that the meeting takes place will be announced after it‘s done.
GREGORY: There‘s going to be a lot of people, Reverend, who ask this question. They‘re going to say there has been so much hysteria about this and that the hysteria took Imus down, not specific injury against these young women, many of whom didn‘t even know who he was, some of whom, including Coach Stringer, had a much more muted reaction when this first came about. You even said in our conversations previously you waited several days until speaking about this from the pulpit. Has Don Imus been caught up in an overreaction?
SOARIES: Well, Don Imus himself said to me last night words that I think all of us should remember, and that is this. Had he not said the words, none of this would have occurred. I can‘t be more concerned about the response to the words than the fact of the words themselves.
Granted, whenever a media frenzy begins, whenever the stories begin to become indistinguishable from rumors, there‘s no doubt there are probably some things that Imus has been accused of doing that are untrue. There are probably some accusations that are unfair. But again, personal responsibility is really foundational for a mature individual, and Imus in his maturity confessed that he had brought this on himself. Now, that does not excuse people from stooping to the level of accusations that are unfounded, et cetera. But we bring things on ourselves, and the Bible says you reap what you sow.
I would hope that now that this specific focus on his status has been resolved, and once the meeting with the Rutgers women has taken place, that we can let the Rutgers women go back to school, we can pray that Imus will grow (INAUDIBLE) from this experience. And then those of us who have a sincere desire to enhance the quality of life in our communities can (INAUDIBLE) in serious dialogue away from the public eye, without the glare of the TV camera, and really attempt to build a more genuine community.
GREGORY: Reverend Soaries, as you are busy trying to put this meeting together as soon as tonight, after CBS has announced that they have now fired Don Imus, one last question for you. What do you think is—what do you think? What is your conclusion—having dealt with him and been in the middle of this, what do you think about Don Imus?
SOARIES: I think Don Imus is a professional. I think he is a mixture of comedy and satire and politics and punditry. I think he has established a brand that is in some ways genius but in other ways dangerous. And he is not likely to change. I don‘t think Mr. Imus will suffer financially. The ego will be bruised.
And my prayer is that he will seek to understand exactly what happened because he touched a nerve in this country that I have not seen since the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. And I‘m not trying to be over-exaggerating, but I‘ve never seen this kind of response come from such a broad (INAUDIBLE) of people who agree on the basic proposition and who are so focused on and sympathetic for these 10 young ladies.
And so I think Mr. Imus is deeply apologetic, truly regretful, and will be seeking strategies to really figure this out and to find the next chapter in his life.
GREGORY: Reverend DeForest Soaries, who is working to arrange a meeting between Don Imus and the women of Rutgers University who were the target of his comments. Reverend Soaries, thank you again for joining us.
SOARIES: Thank you.
GREGORY: I hope you‘ll keep us up to date on the meeting, when it‘s going to happen and what comes of it. Again, thank you.
SOARIES: I will definitely do that. Thank you.
GREGORY: CBS has fired Don Imus one day after MSNBC has done the same. He is off the air.
Joining us now are two members of the Congressional Black Caucus, Maryland congressman Elijah Cummings and the caucus‘s chairwoman, Michigan congresswoman Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick. Congresswoman Kilpatrick, I heard you on Reverend Sharpton‘s show earlier this week with Don Imus and your exchange. What is your reaction today? And I‘ll ask you pointedly, does the sentence fit the crime in this case?
REP. CAROLYN CHEEKS KILPATRICK (D-MI), CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS
CHAIR: You know, I‘m honored today to be in New York, and earlier this morning met with both the president and the senior staff at NBC and at CBS. It‘s an awesome responsibility. We had wonderful meetings—the president of NOW, National Organization for Women, as well National Organization for Women (ph) organizations (ph), as well as Marc Morial from the Urban League. It was a cross-section. It was a good meeting.
And this is bigger than Imus. I‘m obviously delighted that he‘s been fired. I said early on he should be fired. Now we have to say the culture and talk about the culture of our communications media system in America. Do we want to build American strong families, or do we want to tear them apart? I think the acts and the steps—and I want to commend both presidents for taking that action. That was the right step to take. And...
GREGORY: But Congressman...
(CROSSTALK)
GREGORY: Can I just interject for a moment? I just want to hear on this specific case—I want to hear you articulate why you think this result is the just result.
KILPATRICK: This is the just result because this gentleman—and I have to call him a gentleman—did what was wrong. There are millions of young people, women particularly, African-Americans specifically, who marvel at who we are, who work hard every day, who sacrifice to go to Rutgers University and other universities around this country, who stay there, who achieve excellence in academics. And then to find a young man who just look out on the floor and call them something—and again, it wasn‘t just those words. They had a conversation for three or four minutes with very derogatory images and messages about a particular group of people.
We also had in our group this morning one of the psychiatrists from Rutgers University, and she talked about the damaging effect it still does yet today. You saw the women. They‘re smart. They‘re intelligent. They‘re scholastic. They‘re prodigies. They‘re still damaged. And one said she‘ll be damaged for the rest of her life.
I don‘t think you understand the far-reaching impact of the remarks. It wasn‘t just something from the hip. It was researched. Someone gave him that. And incidentally, it was absolutely the totally wrong thing to say for America at a time when we‘re fragile, we‘re at war, people are losing their jobs, children are worried about their financial aid, if they can go to school...
GREGORY: Right.
KILPATRICK: Wrong time, wrong message, and he got what he deserved.
GREGORY: OK, Congresswoman, I just want to be clear, I‘m not making a judgment about the remarks or their impact, but I‘m questioning you and others about just what you think about the outcome.
And let me turn now to Congressman Cummings. In this case, your reaction, and do you think this fit the crime?
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D-MD), CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS: No doubt about it, it fit the crime. You got to keep in mind—and I agree with my chairlady, Ms. Kilpatrick—we had a situation here where African-American women and others were balancing a sports career at a college, and a very good one at that, very good college, with academics. I don‘t know how many people have ever tried to do it. It‘s very, very difficult. And these are young ladies that are probably going to go on to graduate from school and become professionals in our society.
And at a moment when they were in the process of celebrating, celebrating the fact that they had gotten to the Final Four, the Final Two, here comes an elderly gentleman, who comes along and ruins their moment. Anybody who‘s a parent—I‘m a parent of two daughters—I can tell you, that is what hurts. I mean, Imus had made comments about other people who were adults that could fend for themselves. But the fact is that these were our children, who, as Ms. Kilpatrick said, were giving it their very, very best, and that‘s the last thing you want to see.
Now, let me tell you something. I really—I agree that this is so much bigger than this. And I‘m sure that the—when I hear about the presidents of CBS and NBC doing what they have done, I hope they‘ll go even further than that. I don‘t want it to end here. I want to make sure that people like Tim Russert has more African-Americans and minorities on his programs. I want to make sure that there are internships for folks who want to come into the studios because, let me tell you, I think that if Imus had wonderful young ladies like this around him in his studio, perhaps working with him, interning or whatever, I don‘t think he would have made those kind of statements because he would have been more sensitive.
And we do have to do—as Ms. Kilpatrick said, we‘ve got to find a way to bring our society together. And we cannot just let this just sort of go away, as Imus may go off into the sunset. I hope he doesn‘t go into the sunset. I hope he finds a way to—just as he has raised money and wonderfully for children with cancer, I hope that he‘ll raise money for scholarships for young people because Ms. Kilpatrick will tell you that we have young brilliant kids in our communities that are sitting home or doing some job because they don‘t have the money to go to college.
GREGORY: Congresswoman...
CUMMINGS: I say to Imus, Help them.
GREGORY: Let me ask you, Congresswoman, you appeared, as I mentioned, on Reverend Sharpton‘s program earlier in the week with Don Imus. And there is no debate about the hideousness of his remark. How did you find him? Did you think his remorse was genuine, or did you find it forced?
KILPATRICK: Unfortunately, I believe the gentleman did not get the impact of what he said and how it related to the world, and particularly to America. After talking to him—and I‘ve got friends who know him and say he‘s a nice gentleman, he donates, he gives his time, he and his wife. And we thank him for that. I don‘t think he gets it. He won‘t understand, for some reason, and I hope he‘ll take this time—and I‘d be happy to work with him, and so will members of the Congressional Black Caucus—to bring him around so that we talk about how we build a stronger family, how we make access to higher education more affordable, and those kinds of things.
So I don‘t think he was malicious at all. I think he said what he said, not thinking what he was thinking, or whatever he was thinking, and God only knows that. So you know, I don‘t think it was malicious. And I did talk to him for a few minutes on Reverend Sharpton‘s show, and it was a good exchange, but I left there just knowing in my heart that he didn‘t understand the impact of what he had done.
I think after the team and the coaches and the president—and by the way, we, the members of the Congressional Black Caucus and Speaker of the House, are having the president, the team, the coaches in to Washington, D.C., in the next 10 days. We‘re also going to have a hearing. This is the 35th year of Title 9, which is federal legislation that began the equal opportunity for women in sports. And we‘re inviting the Rutgers psychiatrist, we‘re inviting the president of NOW and a couple others to talk about this so that this is the beginning and not the end.
And when we met with the two presidents today—and I feel confident that as they told us, they‘re going to work with us, that we are going to see a change in their culture. We told that they were the leaders, they were the leaders at this time of our lives, at this time in history, and they can move the country forward by using a multi-cultural staff both in front of the camera and beyond, that they would use us as a resource.
We in the caucus have five members who are chairpersons of major committees. We have 17 members who are subcommittee chairs in everything from finance to economics...
GREGORY: Right.
KILPATRICK: ... to alternative energy. And I believe, in talking to them this morning, and particularly after we‘ve seen the second action taken, you‘re going to see a different movement. Again, I commend both CBS and NBC.
GREGORY: Congressman, just a final question here, and a quick comment. Don Imus has accused some in the African-American community, particularly Civil Rights leaders, yourselves included, who have spoken to the networks and spoken out on this issue—accused them of hypocrisy. And one of the things he cites, for instance, because it‘s topical, is the outcome of the Duke lacrosse rape case. And is there condemnation for this young woman, this young African-American woman who made a case against these young white men that was unfounded, in the end? And that‘s what the courts ruled. Do you speak out in that case, as well?
CUMMINGS: I think that—I think that whenever there is injustice anywhere, it is horrible. As a lawyer, one who has gone into many, many courtrooms throughout the state of Maryland, I can tell you I think that what happened there was clearly unfair. And I think it came out and it came out in the wash.
But—and I don‘t—but understand, here we have a situation where, again, Mr. Imus has said a lot of things. But keep in mind, he has come forth and he‘s apologized. Again, Ms. Kilpatrick has heard the apology. She questions his sincerity. But the fact still remains that we have now got to take this situation and make something better of it. And one of the things that we spend a lot of time in the caucus doing is trying to take negative situations, look at them for what they are, and then make things better as a result of them. And I think that‘s exactly what is going to happen, particularly with the leadership of Ms. Kilpatrick and the members of the Congressional Black Caucus and many others.
GREGORY: We are going to leave it there for now, but I can tell you, on this network, this is a conversation that will continue. Thank you to Congressman Elijah Cummings and Congresswoman Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick.
KILPATRICK: Thank you.
CUMMINGS: Thank you.
GREGORY: When we return, reaction from Rutgers University. The news
CBS has now fired Don Imus. He‘s completely off the air. We‘ll have more on this.
You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREGORY: Coming up: Don Imus is off the air at CBS Radio and MSNBC.
Reacting from—reaction, rather, from Rutgers University—when HARDBALL returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREGORY: We are back on HARDBALL. I‘m David Gregory, in for Chris tonight.
We have got breaking news. CBS has fired Don Imus. He is now off the radio. That follows the decision by this network yesterday to take him off this network‘s air as well—that decision coming within the past hour, that CBS has fired Don Imus.
In political news that is related to this, we have learned that Hillary Clinton will be giving a speech at Rutgers University on Monday to talk about this controversy. So, we will continue to follow that.
Speaking of Rutgers University, that is where NBC News‘ Lisa Daniels is, with reaction to this story.
And, Lisa, you have not only gotten reaction, but, obviously, you‘re hearing the developments about whether Don Imus is going to meet with the young ladies at Rutgers, something we‘re also following.
LISA DANIELS, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we are following both.
In fact, there was a handful of students watching “Oprah” as the women‘s basketball team spoke to her. But the news about CBS has not spread here. In fact, we were the ones, like a madwoman, that were quickly trying to gauge reaction by going from table to table.
So, this mini-crowd that you see behind me was not selected based on their opinions. I just literally grabbed them, and they were kind enough to accommodate us.
So, just a quick show of hands. How many of you were surprised that CBS fired Imus?
OK, four of you?
And how many think that the crime is appropriate with the punishment?
So, you guys changed your mind as I was talking to you, because, at first, you said you think he should be fired. And now you said that he...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think that, you know, a lot worse things have been said on the air. And for him being fired like that, without a suspension and fine, I don‘t think it is right. I think he should have had a chance to, you know, come back and speak his piece, and maybe just fine him, so he does not lose his job.
DANIELS: But it seems like it‘s a hard decision for you, because you keep on flipping back and forth. You‘re not quite sure about it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, because I don‘t agree with what he said about the female basketball team. I don‘t think it is right to speak that way about—really, about anyone. As a public figure, you should watch what you say. You shouldn‘t be allowed to say anything you want, just because you have a mike.
DANIELS: OK. Let‘s get to some other people.
What about CBS and NBC? Do think they are responding to advertisers, or do you think they are responding to the community and also pressure to get rid of Imus?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they are responding to the community, as the—how the community responded.
At first, it was that he said it. But, then again, a lot of people didn‘t hear about it until afterwards, when the protesters came about. And now advertisers—I heard this morning Geico is pulling out and big advertisers. So, I think the response of the community and advertisers, both, as a response to what he said.
And, again, they are taking a step up, because they don‘t want to portray themselves as being, like, a negative...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Company?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, negative company...
DANIELS: Negative company?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... you know, backing up someone who says—is saying this about people.
DANIELS: Now, you said: This is a college campus. We have got a lot to do.
You never heard of Imus?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not really. I never heard of him.
But I did see what he had said on the computer and then the press conference afterwards. And I‘m not sure how I feel about him being fired or not. But I think how he behaved was inappropriate and it shouldn‘t be tolerated.
DANIELS: And you watched all those clips on YouTube, right?
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: A lot of your friends have.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
DANIELS: And that is the first time that you actually saw him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That‘s the first time I saw him.
DANIELS: What is your reaction?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think it‘s very appropriate, the way that he was fired, because CBS and NBC, they need to portray a positive image of themselves. So, they are not going to have a guy that is portraying themselves as like negative and racist and sexist, which also shows that—which also shows that—shows that racism and sexism still exist in America.
So, basically, they are not going to get let that happen. So, they have got to get rid of somebody that is like that.
DANIELS: What is the part that offends you? Is it that it‘s a racist comment or a sexist—sexist comment, or both?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think both. I know that I fully support what the Rutgers basketball team has done. I know that it personally offended them.
I don‘t know that he should have been fired, but it‘s definitely an issue that needs to be addressed, and that I think that, if there is a person-to-person apology between the two, that action should be taken from there.
DANIELS: All right, thanks so much for running over. I really, really appreciate it.
So, David, that is just an unscientific poll. We just grabbed them.
And you can see what the gut reaction is.
GREGORY: All right.
DANIELS: Back to you.
GREGORY: Lisa Daniels, at Rutgers, thank you very much.
When we return: Don Imus was on the air this morning. We will hear what he said on what turned out to be his last show.
You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
CBS has fired Don Imus, one day after NBC News dropped the simulcast of his radio show. The action by CBS today means Don Imus is now without a broadcasting home.
This morning, before CBS let him go, Imus was on the radio doing a charity telethon. And he hit back hard at critics.
HARDBALL correspondent David Shuster has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE):DAVID SHUSTER, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, Don Imus made his final departure from MSNBC studios. On the radio this morning, Imus said, it is time to move forward, but still intends to meet with the Rutgers women‘s basketball team.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, “IMUS IN THE MORNING”):
DON IMUS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: If I had not have said it, we wouldn‘t be here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
IMUS: So, let‘s stop whining about it. And we just have to move on, try to make things make better.
I am going to meet with the kids. And—but you got to stop complaining. I mean, friends of mine and everybody else, I mean, just—you know, I said a stupid, idiotic thing that—that—that desperately hurt these kids. I am going to apologize to them. And then we will move on.
SHUSTER: On Wednesday, several advertisers announced they were suspending their commercials from the MSNBC broadcast of the “Imus” show.
But NBC News president Steve Capus said the decision to end the television simulcast was based largely on the strong feelings expressed by NBC employees.
STEVE CAPUS, NBC NEWS PRESIDENT: I have spent an awful lot of time listening to people who work for NBC News and people on the outside. At the end of the day, the people from NBC News made it very clear that this is something they expected of this news division.
SHUSTER: While the NBC News employees were making their case to executives privately, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton were making their arguments for termination publicly.
This morning, on “The Today Show,” Sharpton said he was satisfied.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “THE TODAY SHOW”):
AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I think NBC did the right thing.
I think the advertisers and the collective voices had a lot to do with it.
SHUSTER: In the meantime, Imus when on the offensive today against Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. The activist supported the accuser in the Duke lacrosse case and joined her in alleging the players were guilty of rape. Yesterday, all of the charges against the players were dropped.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, “IMUS IN THE MORNING”):
IMUS: I‘m not surprised at any of this. So—and I‘m not surprised at the hypocrisy of Al Sharpton or—or Jesse Jackson or any of these people. But you can‘t whine about it.
SHUSTER: Imus also charged after Harold Ford Jr., who he had strongly and quickly supported last fall in his Senate campaign when a racially charged ad was run on behalf of his opponent.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, “IMUS IN THE MORNING”):
IMUS: Harold Ford Jr. has been disgraceful in his lack of support, because I endured death threats to support him in Tennessee. So, I mean, it is unfortunate that he has no courage.
SHUSTER: “Imus in the Morning” is the only regularly scheduled program that has aired on weekday mornings in the 11-year history of MSNBC.
And, while Imus is now nationally known for the comments that terminated his television simulcast, he has long been deeply involved in charitable work, raising millions for children‘s programs and millions more for a new treatment center in Texas helping wounded veterans.
At first this week, NBC announced Imus would be suspended. Days later, he was fired.
Friends of Imus accused NBC of mishandling him. Today, Imus encouraged everybody to let it go.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, “IMUS IN THE MORNING”):
IMUS: We can talk about all the good work I have done forever. But it doesn‘t change that I said that. So, you got to remember that. I‘m not offering any excuses, just—everybody has got to stop whining.
SHUSTER: Imus acknowledged that his abrasive style is coming home to roost now, but he said, he is not done yet.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, “IMUS IN THE MORNING”):
IMUS: I have dished it out for a long time. Now it is time to take it. And that‘s fine. Bring it on.
SHUSTER (on camera): At several points this morning on the radio, Don Imus called some of his critics “bastards.” That kind of back-and -forth between Imus and his detractors is one of the reasons that Imus has been such a compelling and financially successful media figure.
But it also raises the question as to whether the death penalty now by the media is appropriate for his crime.
I‘m David Shuster for HARDBALL in Washington.
GREGORY: David, thank you very much.
Coming up next: What does this incident and ensuing firestorm over it say about race in this country, race relations, and how we talk to one another?
You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TRISH REGAN, CNBC CORRESPONDENT: I‘m Trish Regan with your CNBC “Market Wrap.”
Stocks rebounding, after yesterday‘s losses—taking a look here, the Dow Jones industrial average gained more than 68 points. The S&P 500 was up almost nine points. And the Nasdaq gained 21 points.
Stocks were helped by stronger-than-expected retail sales figures for March. Wal-Mart, Target, J.C. Penney, and Costco are those reporting strong sales. But retailers are warning that rising gasoline prices and a tougher housing market may impact sales in the coming months.
Mortgage rates rose for the second straight week, the average 30-year fixed rate nationwide inching up to 6.22 percent.
And oil prices also climbed today. Crude oil gained $1.84 in New York trading, closing at $63.84 a barrel.
And, after the closing bell, an FDA advisory panel recommended that Arcoxia, a painkiller that Merck proposed as a successor to Vioxx, should not be approved. In after-hours trading, Merck shares are down more than 1 percent.
Well, that is it from CNBC, first in business worldwide—back to
HARDBALL.
GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
CBS has fired Don Imus, effective immediately.
In a statement, CBS president and chief executive officer Leslie Moonves said—quote—“From the outset, I believe all of us have been deeply upset and repulsed by the statements that were made on our air about the young women who represented Rutgers University in the NCAA Women‘s basketball championship with such class, energy and talent. Those who have spoken with us the last few days represent people of good will from all segments of our society, all races, economic groups, men and women alike. In our meetings with concerned groups, there has been much discussion of the effect language like this has on our young people, particularly young women of color trying to make their way in this society. That consideration has weighed most heavily on our minds as we made our decision, as have the many e-mails, phone calls and personal discussions we have with our colleagues across the CBS Corporation, and our many other constituencies.”
We are joined by the “Washington Post‘s” Eugene Robinson now, and MSNBC political analyst Pat Buchanan. In Washington, author Tom Oliphant is on the phone, of the “Boston Globe,” and I guest, as I have been frequently, on the “Imus in the Morning Program.”
Tom, let me start with you and get your reaction. Tom, are you there? Tom Oliphant, are you there? I am not sure he can hear us. We‘ll get back to him. Eugene, reaction—Robinson, this has all happened very fast. We‘ve been on the air talking about this for the last couple of days. It‘s moved very quickly.
EUGENE ROBINSON, “THE WASHINGTON POST”: Right, we were here this morning talking about the MSNBC decision. Now, much quicker than I thought was even conceivable, we have CBS.
GREGORY: What happened? Because, after all, CBS is his main employer. What happened?
ROBINSON: I think a similar dynamic played out at CBS. I mean, you had all the major advertisers pulling out of the show, and it becomes a branding question. It becomes a question of whether you want your brand associated with this show. The advertisers decided they did not. And therefore, you know, NBC had decided it did not. I think CBS kind of felt out there alone. CBS is giving up X million dollars a year in revenue from this decision, and clearly, they decided that brand and good will were worth more than whatever revenues Imus was making for them..
GREGORY: Tom Oliphant of the “Boston Globe” is on the phone with us.
Tom, hi, thanks for calling in.
TOM OLIPHANT, “THE BOSTON GLOBE”: My pleasure, and hi Gene and Pat.
ROBINSON: Hi Tom.
GREGORY: Tom, what are your thoughts about this?
OLIPHANT: Well, I do not find Les Moonves‘ statement particularly credible. It sounds looks like a very, very slow burning fuse to me, a week later. And you will have to pardon me if I do not dance on a pals grave. I do not think this -- this is an occasion for sadness for those of us who know him and who have worked with him. Some of us thought this could be worked out, and we were clearly wrong.
But I must say, I have never found the statements of media executives to be particularly credible, and this one does not fly with me at all.
GREGORY: When you thought it could be worked out—
(CROSS TALK)
OLIPHANT: If I could share a story, that maybe illustrate my point. I think one of the first suggestions made to Don, maybe as early as Monday morning, when I was on, David, was that he, himself, announce his own suspension. In other words, I am getting out of here for two weeks to work on this, think about it. I am doing this.
Unfortunately, he could not see his way through doing that. And, I think, at that point, the slope became very slippery.
GREGORY: And, in fact, Pat, let us be honest—I have been clear too. I mean, I‘m not trying just report this out straight, because I have been loyal to Don Imus and been on his show frequently, and am saddened by this all the way around. But Don got defensive about this. And his contrition was coupled with a fair dose of his own outrage, and his own kind of lashing out. Did he make things worse for himself, Pat?
PAT BUCHANAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, today, it was all over.
That‘s the only time I saw him lash out. In my judgment—I believe this:
like you, I like Don Imus. I think he has a terrific show. It is edgy. Do they cross the line? Yes. I think probably what he should have done is when you do something like this, you come forward, you admit it, you apologize. He should have called Harold Ford and had Harold Ford say let‘s go down to Rutgers. I‘m to apologize down there, get it done. Then basically, draw the wagons and stand and fight as best you can.
I agree with Brother Oliphant, I think, on the part of CBS, this is a corporate decision with CBS. You don‘t get revolution nine days later, after 10,000 shows.
(CROSS TALK)
BUCHANAN: And you are suddenly revulsed by what you have just heard.
GREGORY: Tom, this is about—and look, let‘s not excuse NBC here. NBC has made a decision. CBS has made a decision. You think we felt the heat and responded accordingly.
OLIPHANT: If you said that—if the NBC guys yesterday, and the CBS suits today had said that, then I would say then they are credible. Otherwise, I get the impression sometime that I am looking at a remake of “Bonfire of the Vanities.”
GREGORY: All right, I have to take a quick break. I‘m going to start with you, Gene, when we come back. Pat Buchanan here, and Tom Oliphant of the “Boston Globe,” and an author is also on the phone. We are going to come back. We‘re also going to be joined by Democratic presidential candidate Chris Dodd coming up. He announced his campaign for president on “Imus in the Morning,” and said that he won‘t rule out doing the show again. We are going to get caught up with him and his latest views on that when we come back. This is HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Chris Dodd from Iowa in just a moment. But first, Eugene Robinson of the “Washington Post.” You wanted to make a point.
ROBINSON: Yes, the point I wanted to make was the world has changed. Diversity is a fact of life in America in 2007. Thirty years ago, 40 years ago, Steve Capus would not have heard, would not have been able to hear from many women and minority employees of NBC News, who were upset at continuing to have Imus on the air, because those people did not exist. I imagine Les Moonves heard the same thing internally at CBS. And, quite likely, some the advertisers who pulled out were hearing the same thing from their own ranks. American Express, one former advertiser, was run by an African-American. So, things have changed, and Imus never caught up to that.
BUCHANAN: You know, a guy made a mistake, apologized, asked for forgiveness and he did not get it. They hung him.
GREGORY: All right, let me go to Chris Dodd. Senator Dodd of Connecticut is in Iowa today. Senator, thanks for coming on.
SEN. CHRIS DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: Thank you, David.
GREGORY: Look, you have known Imus for a long time. You‘ve been a friend of his program and of him. You announced for president. Tell me what your reaction is today.
DODD: Well look, I am a father of two young daughters. I begin there, and I have thought over the last two days, how I would feel if those comments were made about them at some point. You can‘t help but personalize it on that level, and so you have to begin by saying what‘s been said over and over again, what Don Imus has said about himself: these are totally unacceptable, deplorable comments.
He has apologized for them. I think his apology is sincere. But obviously the actions that he takes—I know the focus today is on NBC and CBS. But I want to pick up on something Mr. Robinson, one of your guest—
I can‘t see him. I‘m looking at a camera lens here. But he said something very important a second ago. If this is only about Don Imus and CBS and NBC, and a failure to recognize that while we have made significant progress over these last few years, in our lifetime, David, yours and mine, and I suspect Mr. Robinson.
When I think back on what the country was like, regarding ethnicity and racism and sexism, we have come a long way. But it also reminds us that the scars are still there. And this is an opportunity, in a way, if we look beyond these specific language and the hurt, and look at these remarkable young women at Rutgers, truly remarkable women. What they have offered Don Imus to come and meet with him is stunning. I hope he takes them up on that offer.
And I hope Don Imus sees this as an opportunity for the country to learn from this. We are a diverse people. It‘s a strength. We need a sense of community once again in this nation. While we recognize that this kind of coarseness, this language is unacceptable here.
GREGORY: Senator, did you and I and Pat Buchanan and others, Tom Oliphant, who‘s been on this program tonight, as some critics will say, did we give Imus a pass by appearing on his program for these past years?
DODD: I don‘t think so. In a way, you mentioned, I made an announced of my presidential candidacy on that program. One of the reasons is because one of the other networks, when they offered to have me on, said they would maybe give me one minute or two minutes, maybe that morning. And we talked to the Imus program. And they said, well, you can have 20 minutes here to explain why you‘re doing this, and the opportunity to get heard by a lot of people, a lot of people who don‘t listen, by the way, to “Face the Nation,” “Meet the Press,” and the other Sunday talk show.
So it‘s an opportunity with a very good period there of asking questions. So I understand that and accept that. But this has got to be dealt with in a way beyond just who is on, who is not on, what happened to the networks, and so forth. The chance to take advantage of the story and do something positive with it here, to take us closer to that step of eradicating these problems that still persist, this coarseness of language, this kind of humor, the hurtful language that can cause so much damage. And that‘s what, I think, Mr. Robinson was saying on your program. And I applaud his comments and want to be associate with them.. I think it‘s a great idea.
GREGORY: I‘m going to take a break here. We‘re going to come back for more with Senator Chris Dodd, Eugene Robinson of the “Washington Post,” Pat Buchanan, on CBS‘ firing late today of Don Imus. I think Tom Oliphant is with us still, as well. You are watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREGORY: We‘re back on HARDBALL with our remaining moments with the panel. CBS has fired Don Imus, the day after NBC did the same thing. I want to go around the horn here, starting with you, Senator Dodd. Do you think this was the right thing to do to fire Don Imus?
DODD: You know, David, I am not—that‘s an action, a reaction, I accept that for being what it is. My hope is the story doesn‘t end there. I think there is a story here that needs to be completed. And that is Don Imus accepting the invitation now of these students at Rutgers to meet with them, to go beyond that, and to demonstrate by actions and otherwise, we‘ve learn something from this. We are getting closer to eliminating those scars that still linger out there, of sexism and racism and bigotry. So, I hope that‘s what happens from this.
GREGORY: Final comment from you Tom, Oliphant. Not back. We will come back to him. Eugene, final thought here?
ROBINSON: It‘s different to mix the two genres, being a news interviewer and being a shock jock. Shock jocks get fired all the time. This is not the first time Don Imus has been fired in his career. Every one of them has been fired. And, you know, you dance with alligators, you‘re going to get your leg bitten of at some point.
GREGORY: It‘s not the first time he has had these racists—either.
ROBINSON: It‘s certainly not the first time.
GREGORY: Pat Buchanan?
BUCHANAN: I think Don Imus has got a good heart. He‘s a good guy. He made a mistake here. It was, I think, stupid, and, in my judgment, not premeditated, malicious mistake. I think people should have cut him some slack. I understand why our network did what it did. You had an employee rebellion. You had advertisers leaving, as Gene said. You had pressure coming from Sharpton and Jackson, and you can‘t lose the platoon for a single man. I understand why they did it. It‘s was understandable, but, in my judgment, unheroic.
GREGORY: Tom Oliphant, are you still with us? OK, we‘ve lost him. Senator Dodd, does this become a conversation, public discourse in this country, a conversation in this campaign?
DODD: I hope so. I mean, these are the kinds of moments that offer you something. If it‘s just kind of a passing quick story that this fellow lost his job, the networks fired him, and we move on to the next story, the next Anna Nicole Smith story, then we have missed an opportunity that this incident is giving us to understand that racism persists in this country. Bigotry persists. It hurts us. It deprives us of the kind of unity and sense of community I think all of us want to feel. So I hope the story goes on and actions are taken to address this.
GREGORY: Senator thank you. Eugene, Pat, thank you all very much. Thank you for watching.
Thursday, April 12, 2007
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On Hardball with Chris Matthews, April 12, 2007 |
Wednesday, April 11, 2007
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On Hardball with Chris Matthews, April 11, 2007 - 7 P.M. |
Guests Vivian Stringer, Barack Obama, Armstrong Williams, Craig Crawford, Jonathan Capehart, Clarence Page, Steve Capus, Robert Johnson, Phil Griffin, DeForest Soaries talk with guest host, David Gregory
Transcript for Hardball:
DAVID GREGORY, GUEST HOST: Tonight, NBC News announces it will no longer air Don Imus‘ radio program here on MSNBC. We have the latest. Let‘s play HARDBALL.
Good evening. I‘m David Gregory, in for Chris Matthews tonight.
NBC News has announced that MSNBC will no longer simulcast the radio show IMUS IN THE MORNING. A statement released last today by NBC News president Steve Capus said the following, quote, “Effective immediately, MSNBC will no longer simulcast the IMUS IN THE MORNING radio program. This decision comes as a result of an ongoing review process.”
Still Capus‘ statement, “Which initially included the announcement of a suspension. It also takes into account many conversation with our own employees, what matters most to us”—Capus‘ statement continuing now—“is that the men and women of NBC Universal have confidence in the values we have set for this company. This is the only decision that makes that possible. Once again, we apologize to the women of the Rutgers basketball team and to our viewers. We deeply appreciate the pain this incident has caused.”
That is a statement late today from NBC News president Steve Capus.
Steve Capus will be our guest here on HARDBALL momentarily.
We are joined now by phone, by Rutgers women basketball coach C. Vivian Stringer.
Coach Stringer, welcome. Your reaction to the announcement by this network?
VIVIAN STRINGER, COACH, RUTGERS WOMEN‘S BASKETBALL TEAM: Thank you, David. I was surprised. I didn‘t know what was going to happen. And as you know, the team and I did agree to and we still do, as far as I know, agree to (AUDIO GAP). If—Mr. Imus to understand the man behind the comments that we heard.
Nonetheless, we viewed this as, obviously, very hurtful, but it went across all lines. And I think that perhaps he failed to understand that, as he, you know, pointed barbs toward this team that should have been celebrated, but instead came back to, you know, a 50-second -- 50-second comment that was degrading at the very least.
But I don‘t think that he understood. It wasn‘t just the Rutgers women‘s basketball team, it was all women. And all of us have moms and sisters. And I think that it touched the citizens.
It‘s been my contention all along that too often there are powerful figures who speak for all of us. But yet, in this situation, I think that all of us took a little piece of this. Certainly all African-Americans. And people of any color.
And this happened, it restored my confidence, actually, in people being decent human beings and demanding that there be better standards, not only from Mr. Imus but for a lot of people in a lot of different venues, that we really embrace the notion of preparing our young people and protecting our young people so they can become good and decent people.
GREGORY: Coach, let me ask you, is this meeting with the players and Don Imus still going to happen this week?
STRINGER: Well, as far as I know. I mean, believe me, I just heard about this less than 10 minutes ago. So as I know, I guess it would. Because I would still want to know who this person is. He needs to know who the people are that he hurt.
Because I think we don‘t take time, many times, to think about the fact that we‘re all human beings and behind our titles, coach or president, CEO, we‘re human beings. And that‘s what really happened here.
He still needs to know who this team is. And if he doesn‘t, you know, that‘s all well and good, as well. I don‘t know how the players are going to feel.
But our purpose was not to even make a decision about whether or not he should be fired. Our purpose was to bring about a better understanding and a closure for this basketball team, who, like I said, never got a chance to celebrate anything other than the hurtful statements made by him.
GREGORY: In your conversations with these young ladies and this team, was it their intention as part of this meeting to get him to be part of a dialogue to heal this wound publicly? In other words, did they want him to stay on the air? Or did they want him to be fired? Or did they think he could be constructive by staying on the air?
STRINGER: No. There was no comment on that side of it. I think that if it were intended to bring about a public embarrassment and humiliation, obviously then we could have asked him to come to Rutgers and, you know, apologize profusely and, you know, they could have thrown anything that they wanted out there. But that wasn‘t it. If you noticed, we talked about it being a secret meeting in an undisclosed place.
This hurt all of us. I mean, it hurt our recruiting. It hurt, you know, the former players, Rutgers University, the state and the whole thing. We just really want to know, who are you? What is it? Because we also understand that he has done a lot of good things.
And so, you know, if you noticed, I made a statement about his statements. I didn‘t say him the person. I said that his remarks were sexist and racist. And, you know, we need to be responsible for that.
So I think that the young people just really wanted to look him in the face and see his heart. And feel and know that this is a human being, you know, a walking, talking, breathing, caring person. Not this powerful figure behind a microphone that says anything he wants.
And in particular, to hurt people and to hurt them because they have been totally innocent. All they demonstrated is they worked hard and they rose from, you know, the lowest of the depths to the national stage. And they were supposed to be the Cinderella, and look like they put the slipper on it, and it turned into a pumpkin at that.
GREGORY: Coach Stringer, in addition to the decision by NBC News to no longer the simulcast of the IMUS IN THE MORNING program here on MSNBC, CBS Radio has also suspended without pay for two weeks, Imus who, of course, airs all over the country on the radio, on CBS Radio. That would be effective April 16.
So you‘ve got that suspension without pay. And now being off the air at MSNBC. Is this the just result, in your estimation?
STRINGER: You know, I wasn‘t making a decision. I wanted to hear what he had to say. I think that justice must be served to the people. And that‘s why I‘m saying, we just happened to be an instrument for change.
We happened to be the innocent people to which he referred his remarks to.
But I think that everyone took it as a personal front to them, all women, you know, across this nation. All black females. And all black people, aside from the fact that, you know, those that have been trying to inspire and receive scholarships for athletics, I think that it was just all of us, we the people. I think if we the people, the little people.
Because even though the advertisers are the big, powerful conglomerates that we see, you know, they are also human beings that also depend upon, you know, the average, you know, homeowner or the consumer to support their products.
And I think that what we need to know is that there is a moral consciousness that‘s there and that the people‘s voice can truly be heard. And to me it is not Rutgers who‘s done this.
Mr. Imus created this situation. But he probably awakened, you know, within each and he person, what are we all about? And when does this stop?
GREGORY: Right.
STRINGER: And who is it that any of us are so great or so powerful that we can say and do anything to anyone and there not be some repercussions for it? That‘s what I think is going to happen.
IMUS: All right. Coach C. Vivian Stringer, thank you very much for joining us.
STRINGER: You‘re more than welcome. Thank you.
GREGORY: The breaking news here on MSNBC is that Don Imus has been taken off the air at MSNBC. The simulcast of the IMUS IN THE MORNING will no longer air. He has also been suspended by CBS Radio, which airs his program around the country from the flagship station in New York, WFAN. He‘s been suspended for two weeks without pay.
Joining us now is the president of NBC News, Steve Capus, joining us from New York.
The breaking news here on MSNBC is that Don Imus has been taken off the air at MSNBC. The simulcast of the “IMUS IN THE MORNING” program will no longer air. He has also been suspended by CBS Radio, which airs his program around the country from the flagship station in New York, WFAN. He‘s been suspended for two weeks without pay.
Joining us now is the president of NBC News, Steve Capus, joining us from New York. Steve, hello.
STEVE CAPUS, PRESIDENT, NBC NEWS: Hi, David.
GREGORY: And why don‘t you take me through why you made this decision?
CAPUS: Well, it‘s been a week since the original broadcast on the Imus program. And during that time, there have been any number of things that have happened. When I first learned of the comments, we issued an apology and we denounced the comments. They were awful. They were hateful. They were deplorable.
But something also happened right after that, and that is a dialogue that‘s been going on inside the country, and it‘s been going on inside NBC News.
I‘ve received hundreds, if not thousands of emails, both internal and external, with people with very strong views about what should happen. I‘ve listened to those people with their comments. And many of them are people who have worked at NBC News for decades, people who put their lives on the line covering wars and things like that.
These comments were deeply hurtful to many, many people.
And we‘ve had any number of employee conversations, discussions, emails, phone calls. And when you listen to the passion and the people who come to the conclusion that there should not be any room for this sort of conversation and dialogue on our air, it was the only decision we could reach.
GREGORY: And Steve, I don‘t have to tell you. I mean, some of our colleagues, like Al Roker, who did it publicly with a blog on “The Today Show” Web site and others have said essentially that this kind of humor, this platform has been given to—over to Imus for too long now, with this kind discourse and humor.
CAPUS: The Imus program is what it is. And I am proud of some of the things that are on there and not so proud of others. I like that politicians come there to announce that they‘re running for the presidency. I like what Don Imus has done through the years to help kids with cancer at the Imus Ranch. He has raised awareness about autism. He has done any number of good things. And there is no question about that.
I think he is a complex man, and I think in many ways, he is a good man. I don‘t—I think this is not—I‘ve listened to him, by the way, over these last couple of days, and heard him loud and clear talk about how truly sorry he is for these comments. And I believe that. I believe—you know, I take him at his word when he says he‘s not a racist.
But I also believe that those were racist comments. And I believe that it comes—that there have been any number of other comments that have been enormously hurtful to far too many people. And my feeling is that can‘t—that there should not be a place for that on MSNBC.
GREGORY: What was the tipping point, though, Steve? Because people will look at what‘s happened in the past day—General Motors, GlaxoSmithKline, American Express, Ditech.com, Procter & Gamble, companies—Staples—pulling their advertising from MSNBC. And the obvious question that is going to come up that, you know, we‘re feeling the heat and we‘re reacting to dollars.
CAPUS: Look, I understand the people are going to view it that way, and I only say that that—that is not why this decision was made. This decision was made after listening to the people who work for NBC News, who have placed a trust and respect the trust that America has given us.
I ask you, what price do you put on your reputation? And the reputation of this news division means more to me than advertising dollars. Because if you lose your reputation, you lose everything.
And so yesterday, I found out after the fact that some of the advertisers had started to pull their money away. Those types of reports don‘t land on my desk immediately. And honestly, that is not what is behind this.
This is about trust. It‘s about reputation. It‘s about doing what‘s right.
GREGORY: What happened in between the decision-making about the suspension and then the decision to actually pull him off the air?
CAPUS: The days are running together now. But we announced the suspension, and I believed that Imus took some courageous and smart and appropriate actions, with the level of apology that you saw from him on the air day after day, the fact that he went and sat with the Reverend Al Sharpton and spoke on his radio program. And perhaps more importantly than speaking, he listened, and I wanted that process to continue.
At the same time, internally, we were having conversations about what all of this meant. Some of those conversations led to some very interesting reporting on “Nightly News” and “The Today Show” and MSNBC, on NBC stations all across the country—in fact, on every media outlet. There has been an opportunity to have a very important dialogue about race relations and everything—everything that goes under that broad umbrella.
And what has been going on is a lot of conversation, a lot of listening and a lot of talking, and we came to this conclusion. I take no pride—I take no joy in this. It is not a particularly happy moment, but it needed to happen.
GREGORY: Steve, what struck me as I read your decision, since there has been so much conversation about the meeting that is apparently going to happen—although Coach Stringer wasn‘t certain it was going to happen—between Imus and the basketball players at Rutgers. Why not let that meeting go forward and get some feedback from that before making a decision like this?
CAPUS: I don‘t believe that it should be the Rutgers women‘s basketball team that decides Don Imus‘ fate. I mope that meeting still takes place. I think that Imus has things that he wants to say to them, and I believe that that team has things that they want him to hear.
That news conference yesterday by that basketball team and by Vivian Stringer was extraordinary. And that was one of the other things that took place between the time we announced the suspension and when we‘ve made this call.
And I would say that when Vivian Stringer spoke there for about 20 minutes yesterday, from the heart, and she said that she was going to put a human face on this entire situation, many of us took note. I think the entire country did, and appreciated her words and her actions. And to just to watch the members of that team talk about losing their opportunity to celebrate their remarkable achievements on and off the court this year—those comments really hit home.
GREGORY: Defenders of Imus, people close to Imus, other observers
like Mike Lupica this morning, who is a columnist for “The Daily News,” as
you know, and is a frequent guest on the Imus program, said, you know, the
worst thing you do in your public life should not be the last. And if
that‘s the case, then how does Jesse Jackson, who called Jews in New York -
or called New York Hymietown, or the Reverend Sharpton in the way he divided New York City over the Brawley case, how can they be able to apologize and move on, but in this case, Don Imus cannot apologize and move on, especially given his pledge to change his program.
CAPUS: I take no delight in what has happened to Don Imus. Again, I believe he is a good man. But what I would say is, it‘s going to be up to him to decide whether this is his final act. I don‘t think this needs to be the last act for Don Imus. But I can‘t also ignore—and this is what I‘ve heard time and time again from so many people who work for me at NBC News—I can‘t ignore the fact that there is a very long list of inappropriate comments, of inappropriate banter, and it has to stop. It needed to stop. There shouldn‘t—there just should not be a place for that.
And I take no delight in this. I really don‘t.
GREGORY: As the president of the news division, and as a media figure, what do you think the lesson is going to be of this?
CAPUS: Well, look, I‘ll tell you what I don‘t—what I hope doesn‘t happen. I hope we don‘t squander this remarkable opportunity that we have to continue this dialogue that has taken place, to continue the dialogue about what is appropriate conduct and speech, to continue the dialogue about what is happening in America.
I think we have, as broadcasters, a responsibility to address those matters.
This—for the people who were involved in this, from the Rutgers team, this isn‘t a situation, this isn‘t an incident. This is life. And that‘s why when you listen to Vivian Stringer speak yesterday, and the members of that team speak, you understand why those comments came from the heart.
This is not some incident that has happened. This is someone‘s life that we‘re talking about here. And so when you get—when you touch something that deeply, we have a responsibility in our reporting to continue this remarkable national dialogue that has begun.
GREGORY: Steve, what can you say about your conversations with Don Imus today and in the last few days?
CAPUS: I‘ve not spoken with him today, and I intend to. And—I—
look, I‘m one of the people who consider themselves an Imus fan. I listen
to him every morning, and I think very highly of him. I really do. And I
but I needed to make this call, and I believe this is the right call.
GREGORY: Have you talked at all to CBS, and do you have a feeling about what CBS Radio will do about the future of his program?
CAPUS: I don‘t—I have not. My boss has. And I know those conversations took place. We called to inform them that we were going to do this. But I don‘t know what is going to happen with the radio program.
GREGORY: Do you have an opinion about what should happen?
CAPUS: No. That needs to be their call. I—my focus is on NBC.
GREGORY: All right. Steve Capus, the president of our news division and the president of MSNBC as well, making the decision to take Don Imus off the air.
Steve, thanks very much.
CAPUS: Thank you, David.
GREGORY: We‘ll have more on HARDBALL, much more on the cancellation by NBC News of the “IMUS IN THE MORNING” program by this network, and we‘ll continue with more HARDBALL after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREGORY: We are back on HARDBALL. The breaking news of this hour, MSNBC and NBC News have decided to take Don Imus off the air. The simulcast of the IMUS IN THE MORNING radio program will no longer be simulcast on this network, MSNBC. He has also been suspended without pay for two weeks by CBS Radio.
We‘ve been talking to NBC News president Steve Capus.
Earlier today, I spoke to Senator Barack Obama about the Don Imus incident. This is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE):GREGORY: Senator Obama, I want to begin by asking you about Don Imus.
You have condemned his remarks about the women‘ basketball team at Rutgers.
Let me ask you pointedly, do you think he should be fired?
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don‘t think MSNBC should be carrying the kinds of hateful remarks that Imus uttered the other day. And he has a track record of making those kinds of remarks.
Look, I‘ve got two daughters who are African-American, gorgeous, tall, and I hope that at some point, are interested enough in sports that they get athletic scholarships. And my wife and I every day are reinforcing our love for them and how special they are.
I don‘t want them to be getting a bunch of information that somehow they‘re less than anybody else. And I don‘t think MSNBC should want to promote that kind of language.
GREGORY: So he should be off the air, off MSNBC and off CBS, off the air completely in your judgment?
OBAMA: Ultimately, you guys are going to have to make that view. He would not be working for me.
GREGORY: Is there a larger conversation that this incident has started about public discourse in this country, about race in this country, and if so, what is that conversation you‘d like to see?
OBAMA: Well, I think it goes beyond race. Obviously, what this reveals is that we still have a host of racial stereotypes that are out there. And that we are fast and loose in playing with those racial stereotypes and bandying them about and thinking that there aren‘t going to be any consequences to it. And that‘s a problem.
But I also think there‘s a broader problem of a coarsening of the culture, where we think that it‘s entertainment to insult people. And I don‘t think it‘s that funny. And I think that we need to think about how are we promoting tolerance and how are we promoting intelligent debate, and that‘s not been the trend in too much of our media. That‘s something I think that we‘ve all got to think about.
GREGORY: The final point on this, you‘ve been a guest on the Imus program to promote your books. Will you or would you be a guest on his show in the future?
OBAMA: No, I would not. I was on their once, actually, after the Democratic National Convention. I spoke about my book briefly. That‘s been my only experience on the show. And he was fine when I was on that show.
But I don‘t want to be an enabler or be encouraging in anyway of the kind of programming that results in the unbelievably offensive statements that were made just a few days ago.
GREGORY: Senator Obama in a conversation earlier today, obviously before the NBC News decision to take Don Imus off of MSNBC.
We‘re joined by radio talk show host and syndicated columnist Armstrong Williams; MSNBC political analyst Craig Crawford of “Congressional Quarterly”, a frequent Imus guest; Jonathan Capehart of the “Washington Post”; and Clarence Page of the “Chicago Tribune”.
And Clarence, you are on the phone. Yes?
All right. OK. We‘ll get to Clarence Page in just a moment.
Armstrong Williams, we are doing our best to report about ourselves.
CLARENCE PAGE, “CHICAGO TRIBUNE”: Can you hear me?
GREGORY: I can hear you, Clarence, right. We‘re just getting started, and we‘ll get to you in just a moment.
PAGE: OK.
GREGORY: Armstrong, did you see this coming over the past couple of days?
ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, you know, the thing that I think many of us did not consider, which I thought was critical by the president Steve Capus, was a conversation among trusted employees who have a legacy and a reputation at NBC and MSNBC.
And as someone who‘s an employee myself, that is something that‘s very important, and you have to consider that. And NBC made a decision that I think we all must respect.
Because you can look at Capus. He really agonized. You could tell Imus was a friend and this was a sad day for him. But he had—it had nothing to do with advertisers, which he said, which I believe. And it had nothing to do, really, with public opinion.
It had to do with people like Al Roker and others who work inside that building, who give their name and reputation and everything they have to make your network what it is today. He made a decision for the employees. And I think we have to respect that and admire him for it.
GREGORY: Clarence Page, I know that I can tell you, there were internal telephone calls and meetings where a lot of people, mostly African-American colleagues, voiced their views about this.
Al Roker‘s name is mentioned because he spoke about it publicly. Gwen Ifill, who is a former colleague here at NBC News, wrote about it powerfully, I thought, in the “New York Times”. Your reaction to this?
PAGE: Well, I, too, was moved to take a strong stand over the weekend, because of all the reaction I was hearing from my professional broadcast colleagues and my own family and folks in (inaudible).
Hello?
GREGORY: Yes, I‘m sorry, Clarence. I don‘t know what the interference is. But we can hear you fine.
PAGE: I was interrupted by one of your directors, I think.
But I was—I, too, was getting that kind of—of really emotional reaction. I mean, when people just repeat those words to themselves, nappy-headed hos, that just, it just evokes a visceral reaction.
So I‘m not that surprised, and I‘m somewhat gratified that there was that kind of negative response from inside that gratified that MSNBC was considerate enough to respond to it.
GREGORY: Craig Crawford, we‘ve had a debate in the past few days about whether there‘s a racial divide in terms of how these—in terms of the reaction. I don‘t think there‘s much of a divide in terms of how people view these comments as being repugnant. I don‘t think there‘s any disagreement about it.
But we‘ve talk about on this program about you thinking that such a move would be over the line. And now he‘s effectively been fired from MSNBC, and we‘ll see what happens at CBS. And Don Imus has apologized profusely. He has wanted to apologize in person to the lady basketball players, the lady‘s team at Rutgers.
Do you think this is a case of NBC News caving in to the political and economic pressure?
CRAIG CRAWFORD, “CONGRESSIONAL QUARTERLY”: Well, in listening to Capus, I could hear the angst in his voice, David, and I can certainly understand that. I didn‘t think he deserved another chance, because knowing him as I do, I really believe he would seize upon this cause and put his heart into it like he does so many causes and make a difference and possibly more of a difference than having been fired.
But I also thought after we did the segment on HARDBALL last night, David, and later on that evening, as I read my e-mail for starters, a lot of it is supportive of Imus but a lot of it not. I began to think, you know, he has become a vessel for discrimination of all kinds everywhere.
People were relating stories of their personal lives and discrimination, and he‘d just become a symbol of discrimination and bias.
I went through the day. I‘m very loyal. I‘m Scotch-Irish. I‘m loyal to inanimate objects. And he had been a friend and someone I felt the need to stand up for. But at the he said of the day yesterday, I came to the conclusion that he was probably not going to last.
GREGORY: Jonathan Capehart, when you look at this, this is an example of a feeding frenzy leading to him being taken down. That‘s one perspective. Or that what he said was so awful that it created a tipping point, where people stopped and said, enough of this kind of humor. What is it to you?
JONATHAN CAPEHART, WASHINGTON POST: I think it‘s the latter. I think that the decision made by MSNBC—and speaking personally, not for the board—was a moral decision. I think that what Don Imus said was not just over the line, it obliterated the line. And because of the prominence of someone like Don Imus, where, you know, people like Senator Obama have gone on the show, Senator Biden has gone on the show, other people who are promoting...
GREGORY: I‘ve been a frequent guest on there.
CAPEHART: And lots of my colleagues at the “Washington Post” and “Newsweek” have been on. Because he is this—was—maybe from an MSNBC perspective—a prominent person. You wanted to go on his show. It was a must-do, as we said in our editorial, to do his show.
But when you call people names, when you call a group of women nappy-headed hos, what it says about him and about that show is not terribly nice.
But I think the larger issue here is that what made him feel comfortable to say that? And I would argue that we have gotten to a point where words like ho, words—I‘m not sure if I can say the b-word on the air or even the n-word, they‘ve become so mainstream that I think people don‘t understand or even remember the power of those words. And I do think that what you described as a feeding frenzy was really, I think, people saying, as you said, enough. Like, the moral outrage had gotten to the point where they figured, because Imus is so prominent, that if he can get away with it, then who is the next person? And you have to draw the line somewhere.
And it‘s too bad—it‘s too bad for Imus, given all the good works that everyone keeps talking about.
GREGORY: We‘re going to take a break. The panel is going to stay with us. Again, if you‘re just joining us, Don Imus has been taken off the air here at MSNBC by NBC News. You heard earlier from NBC News President Steve Capus. We‘ll play some of that for you as we proceed in the hour.
We‘ll come back with our panel and continue to discuss this news.
You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: In a blatant...
GREGORY: The Reverend Al Sharpton now reacting to MSNBC taking Don Imus off the air.
SHARPTON: ... sexism and racism. It is our hope that CBS will do the same. Tomorrow morning at 11:00, I will join others and we will rally in front of CBS to ask that they also do this.
The issue for us is not and has not been the person of Don Imus. It has been the use of the airwaves to blatantly promote sexism and racism, as his ugly and venomous statements about these young basketball students at Rutgers University.
It is our feeling that this is only the beginning. This must be a walk that CBS now does, it must be a walk that others would do.
Then we must have a broad discussion on what is permitted and what is not permitted in terms of airwaves.
What this particular issue becomes interesting, when it was revealed today that when Mr. Imus had insisted that he was just a good person, that now the revelations coming out of his own private conversations, suddenly speaks to otherwise and other that views.
We feel that his private conversations only undermines his defense to those he was contracted to. It is his public statements that he should have been fired for, that we demanded that firing, and that we now go to CBS with.
Let me add that when we began the campaign yesterday with advertisers, it showed power that people have when people determine that they will not spend money to subsidize being insulted and offended.
Out of the many issues that we fought, I think this has become one that hit a core with a lot of people of all races, of all backgrounds. To see young people who are not doing wrong, who have not engaged in some anti-social or destructive behavior, but have excelled academically and then athletically, being just called some nappy-headed hos, and then the entire conversation, jigaboos versus wannabes. Something I think struck in many people around this country—black and white and Latino and Asian and others—saying that there must be a line.
There are those that say, what about those in entertainment? Well, we must also have that discussion. But we could not have that discussion without first saying that those that are given serious stature, with presidential candidates and U.S. senators and broadcast anchor people appearing on their shows can use those same platforms to denigrate and desecrate people by race and by sex. Let‘s remember, Joe Biden announced his race for president on Mr. Imus‘ show. This was no ordinary platform. And I think that it is very important.
It is a significant step. It is one, though, we do not gloat in. It is really sad that in 2007, that we would even have to deal with this kind of issue. You would think that we had learned these lessons long ago.
I hope that what NBC does is the beginning of us reappraising how we use the public airwaves, even how we use our own language.
All of us can do better, but none of us have the right to use public airwaves in the way that Mr. Imus has consistently done. Mr. Imus said...
GREGORY: The Reverend Al Sharpton speaking in New York in reaction to the decision by this network, MSNBC, to take Don Imus off the air, and saying that he will pressure CBS Radio, beginning tomorrow, to do the same. CBS Radio has suspended Imus for two weeks without pay because of his remarks last week.
We‘re joined by phone now by Robert Johnson, the founder, of course, of Black Entertainment Television. And he is on the phone.
Mr. Johnson, thanks for being here.
ROBERT JOHNSON, BET FOUNDER: Delighted to be here.
GREGORY: Your reaction to this.
JOHNSON: Well, I think absolutely, Don Imus should be fired by both, as he was by MSNBC, and also by CBS.
I think the issue is—and I‘ve watched the show and I‘ve seen Don Imus in a sort of iconoclastic way, chat with politicians and authors and other, quote, intellectuals, and you know, you would think that a guy who could sort of joust with these people would understand the historical significance of a white individual saying such derogatory things about black women, who during slavery were basically used and abused in the worst way possible. And not only that, saying it with some impunity, that he would think that black men would not rise up in outrage when some white man would say that on the air about their, you know, by extension, mothers, daughters, sisters.
And there is no way he could claim any intellectual mantle, and there is no way anybody who went on his show for intellectual jousting could say, hey, this is a guy who allows us to sort of have this kind of freewheeling debate.
Don Imus, you know, showed a deep side of racism that exists in this country, that sort of creeps out and then people express surprise. And I think—I can‘t see how CBS could not let him go.
GREGORY: Why do you think NBC made this decision?
JOHNSON: Well, I think NBC made the decision because of leadership.
You know, I know very well Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE, which is a partner in MSNBC, and GE is one of the most admired companies in the country. And they have employees, African-Americans and white employees, who recognize that to hold that mantle or that brand, they have to act as one of the most admired companies in the country. And I think it was no question that Jeffrey Immelt and his people, whether it reached his level or not, made the decision that this is important to us as a company to reflect the diversity of our employees. And therefore, when this kind of thing happens, whether it happens with a guy who makes us $10 million a year or a guy who sweeps the floors—this is not something they tolerate, and they did the right thing in letting him go.
GREGORY: This has become a national conversation. This incident has the country debating race, race relations, the racial divide, decency, our public discourse, and I wonder whether you think, as the founder of BET, that you and others in the black community also have a responsibility to look at some of the images on BET, some of the language in rap lyrics, like the word ho, and the b-word and the n-word that is replete in the lyrics of rap music, and say that has to be part of this national conversation as well.
JOHNSON: Yes, David, I think that African-Americans have always felt that we have a responsibility for our own destiny, and we will continue to hold that to be the case. And clearly, I join with Reverend Sharpton in saying that if anybody within the African-American community wants to hold a debate on how we treat ourselves, we ought to do it, and I‘ll be the first one to ante up a place to hold it and have that debate. And I did that when I was at BET.
I told the record industry, look, guys, if you guys want to stop making these kinds of video, believe me, I have no problems in not showing them. And when you talk to the artists, the creative people, it‘s up to you to stop this, and we‘ll be glad to show other products that you produce.
But comparing Don Imus to an artist in a music video is apples and oranges.
GREGORY: Why is that the case, in your judgment?
JOHNSON: Well, he held court on a show that was considered one of the
to be one of the highest platforms for political discourse. A show that was a haven for intellectuals to come in and talk about issues. A show where people will come on and announce their candidacy for the president of the United States, representing, in the case of Joe Biden, the Democratic Party, which has over 90 percent black support.
When you have someone who has that platform, it‘s far different from a comedy show, it‘s far different from a video show. And he should have known, with that kind of intellectual fire power as his guests, he should have known that to denigrate black women, the basketball players at Rutgers, in the way he did, and by extension, to basically say to all black America, you can‘t touch me. And not only did he say it, but his sidekick said it, and no one has said anything about him. It was like, we are so powerful because we have these white intellectuals who embrace us and come on our show, that we can say anything, and black America will simply roll over. Because it‘s about money, it‘s about political support, it‘s about being an intellectual opportunity for people to debate.
And as a black person, we—if he had said this—and David, this is true—if he had said this about Jewish Americans, you can ask anybody in black America, the feeling would have been he would have been off the network, not in two weeks, but the next day. And that‘s why black America feels so offended when our so-called...
GREGORY: It is worth pointing out, Mr. Johnson, that he has been for 30 years pretty tough on blacks and Jews and women and Catholics and all the rest. So I don‘t know if that‘s quite right.
JOHNSON: Well, here‘s the thing. At some point, when you say something and it just keeps, you know, scraping and scraping, at some point, it hits a vein, and the pain is so severe that you can no longer do it.
You know, people can point out that Mussolini made the trains run on time. You know, people could point out, you know, things about—I remember when Minister Farrakhan said Adolf Hitler was great in his wickedness, and all of a sudden people couldn‘t understand that.
The point is, at some point, you abuse your right to be in a public environment with your words. And that‘s whether you‘re black or whether you‘re white. You abuse that right. At some point, if this country is going to stand for anything other than just total people using words without disregard to the consequences, then you have to take a stand.
And I think black America, white America, and anyone who sees this as an uncontrolled, unthinking, racist remark has to take a stand.
GREGORY: All right. Robert Johnson, founder, of course, of Black Entertainment Television. Thank you very much for calling in with your views...
JOHNSON: Thank you, David.
GREGORY: ... and your reaction tonight.
Again, the news here is us: MSNBC has decided to take Don Imus off the air, simulcasting his show on MSNBC, “IMUS IN THE MORNING.” CBS is suspending him for two weeks without pay.
This is HARDBALL. We‘ll have more in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREGORY: Coming up, NBC News will no longer air Don Imus‘ radio show on this network. More from our panel when HARDBALL returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP):CAPUS: I‘ve received hundreds, if not thousands of emails, both internal and external, with people with very strong views about what should happen. I‘ve listened to those people with their comments. And many of them are people who have worked at NBC News for decades, people who put their lives on the line covering wars and things like that.
These comments were deeply hurtful to many, many people.
And we‘ve had any number of employee conversations, discussions, emails, phone calls. And when you listen to the passion and the people who come to the conclusion that there should not be any room for this sort of conversation and dialogue on our air, it was the only decision we could reach.
GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL. That was NBC News President Steve Capus in our conversation about the decision he made to take Don Imus off the air here at MSNBC. Reverend Al Sharpton, holding a press conference this hour, saying he will begin a protest against CBS Radio, to push CBS to do the same thing. We have not heard comment from Don Imus himself. WNBC in New York reporting that CBS is saying that Imus will not comment on MSNBC‘s decision. He had said that he would take the suspension of two weeks with dignity.
I‘m back with my panel now. We‘ve just spoken to Bob Johnson, founder of BET. Armstrong Williams, just some reaction to what you‘ve heard here the last few minutes.
WILLIAMS: You know, I actually think this is a good moment in our country, where we‘re having this debate, and I think a lot of good can come from this, if people are honest and if we adhere to the same moral standard.
I enjoyed what Bob Johnson had to say, but I was a little stunned that he said he went to the record companies and the record companies did not comply. He did not have to air those videos, and the way they exploit women on his network. I just thought he was a little disingenuous there.
GREGORY: And this is a question about—that Don Imus has raised, which is the word ho comes out of the hip-hop culture in the first place.
WILLIAMS: Reverend Sharpton, whom I respect as my friend, I mean, he even used the term “white interloper.” In order for them to have the moral authority on this issue, in order for us to make progress here, they must all look in their own homes.
And I don‘t agree with Bob Johnson, that if the African-American community decides that we need to look at this issue—if the African-American community and the rest of the country can decide Don Imus‘ fate, then the rest of the country should also sit in judgment of anybody else that used this kind of terminology and disrespects women and used the n-word and these derogatory terms.
I think Bob Johnson needs a reality check to realize that he needs to check his own house also, and see what he needs to do better to contribute to this national debate.
GREGORY: Clarence Page, do you think that Don Imus has—as Reverend Sharpton has suggested the last couple of days, by appearing publicly, has done himself in essentially? Has done a disservice to himself?
PAGE: Well, I think when you say appearing publicly, you mean by going around and apologizing?
GREGORY: On “The Today”—well, right, on “The Today” program, on his own program. In other words, has he made this worse for himself in some way?
PAGE: Well, no. I don‘t think he would have done the apologizing if things weren‘t already sinking rapidly underneath his feet. Remember last Friday, he gave one apology at the beginning of his program and thought that was going to be enough. By Monday, this had percolated up so that he was apologizing every hour. He goes on Al Sharpton‘s program like a national confessional. And by the end of the day, MSNBC and then CBS were giving him a two-week suspension.
The fact is, this has snowballed, and I think it‘s because, first of all, you have got this cheap shot at these wonderful young women at this college, who are, you know, not rich and famous or powerful, politically powerful celebrities, but just wonderfully admirable young Americans. And then you have got a slow news weekend, and then you‘ve got the Internet. And the general visceral reaction of people to these very negative words. I think that all compounded itself to where Don could see that he was in trouble. It turns out, indeed, he is.
GREGORY: Craig Crawford, you and I are both guests on the “IMUS IN THE MORNING” program. And you know, this may be a knock on us, but you can become sort of numb to the humor there. What made this different?
CRAWFORD: Well, I‘ve thought about this a lot, as I‘m sure you have, David. And you know, the segments I would do with him, none of that stuff was going on. And so it‘s, you know...
GREGORY: Well, that‘s right. That‘s the case with...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAWFORD: But that doesn‘t excuse it. It‘s just I wasn‘t always as aware of it. Although I listened to the show a lot, and so, you know—because the show was almost schizophrenic in a way. Because part of the show was the stuff we did, where you‘d talk about the news, and he‘d have newsmakers on. And then there were the comedy bits and the skits and the sports, which frankly, I have to admit, I don‘t pay much attention to sports, so I didn‘t pay attention to those either. And I think that‘s where a lot of this stuff that is so troublesome, so upsetting to people occurred.
So I think maybe I wasn‘t as aware, although I knew it. I mean, when I‘d go around the country and talk to people, you know, at book signings and things like that, and Imus fans would come up, so many of them would say, you know, I love this stuff that you do, I love the newsmaker, the senators, but I just wish he wouldn‘t do that other stuff. I wish Bernie wouldn‘t do the cardinal skit. You know, that makes my skin crawl.
And so I think his own audience was actually wishing that he wouldn‘t do some of those things. But they just weren‘t listening.
I think the problem is, you know, he started out as the original shock jock 30 years ago. And so—and it evolved after Howard Stern became so big into more of a serious news show, but they kept those elements of that early shock jock period in the show probably longer than they should have.
GREGORY: Jonathan, do you think that people will look at people in the media, at NBC and elsewhere, and a lot of white people, frankly, and say, you know what? You just—you‘ve become so numb to this kind of racist humor. You basically condone it. You accept it. And it takes something like this for you to say, whoa! Maybe that really shouldn‘t be part of our public discourse.
CAPEHART: Well, right now, because of the decision made by MSNBC, this will just be one less program that‘s adding that kind of humor and that kind of conversation to the discourse.
I think that, you know, to go back to Bob Johnson, he could have been part of the solution—just a tiny part, but he could have been a part of the solution. And I think right now, that the conversation that the nation is now engaged in, that Armstrong talked about, needs to move from Imus. Imus was a symptom of a larger problem. And the problem is, we have gotten to the point where the b-word, the n-word, ho and a whole lot of other words are now mainstream.
I spent this afternoon looking up rap lyrics from various artists, and after about a half an hour, I couldn‘t read anymore. I mean, these—and these are from popular artists. I‘m not going to name the names. I figure people can pretty much figure out who they are. But to think that on radio stations, that these songs are being played. And even when they play the clean version, there is nothing left to the imagination.
GREGORY: Clarence Page, let me talk about Imus for a little bit. I mean, this is a guy who is an addict, was a coke addict and a drunk. He did something in his life. He got sober. He made amends to people that he hurt. He made changes. And he made a difference in his life, and he made lots of differences. Children with cancer, with that ranch out there, supporting our troops with the Fallen Heroes Fund, supporting autism.
Why isn‘t it more appropriate that Imus uses this moment and uses himself to heal this wound publicly by yet again making amends to these young women, making changes to his program, and therefore, making a difference on this issue?
PAGE: Well, I suppose because he‘s done it so many times before. People, after a while, feel like, well, when is he going down this slope again?
He made the same argument back in 2000, when I first urged him to take a pledge over the air to avoid this kind of gutter humor. He doesn‘t need to do it. He is smarter than that.
But I think Craig is right. He definitely got into the habit over the years and just couldn‘t break away from it, even to the point of using Bernard as his alter ego, if you will...
GREGORY: Clarence, let me just interrupt you for a second. I just want to get—we‘re joined now on the phone by one of my bosses, Phil Griffin, who is vice president of NBC News and overseeing MSNBC and “The Today” program. Phil has also been at the center of all of these discussions with Don Imus.
Phil, are you on with us?
PHIL GRIFFIN, NBC SR. VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, hey, David.
GREGORY: Phil, what can you tell us about your conversations with Imus, how he reacted to this?
GRIFFIN: Look, he knew what was going on. You know, he was following the story. He knew that it hit a nerve in a big way. So honestly, his reaction was a little bit, I knew it was coming. And he said, look, I was responsible for those words, and that‘s why we‘re here, having this discussion right now. And that was his direct quote. You know, he feels terrible, but he understands the situation.
GREGORY: Is he still going to go forward and meet with the young ladies at Rutgers, Phil?
GRIFFIN: Yes, he is. I was also with Reverend...
GREGORY: Soaries.
GRIFFIN: ... Soaries, who is coordinating that. And he said it doesn‘t matter, that my show, the simulcast has been canceled, but he wants to reach out to the women. He knows that—he knows the pain he has caused.
You know, Don, you know, in his heart, knows that—just the nerve he has hit and the pain that he has caused these women. And I think he has a total understanding of it.
GREGORY: All right. Phil, thank you very much. Reverend Soaries is on the phone with us. Reverend, I have got about just 20 seconds left. I just want a comment from you quickly.
REV. DEFOREST SOARIES: Yes, sir. I think that Mr. Imus will probably meet with the women at Rutgers, and he will probably get a better sense of why this touched off such a nerve and how this really impacted these women. He‘ll be a better man having gone through this, but he‘ll be a better man without the platform of electronic television.
GREGORY: All right. Reverend Soaries, DeForest Soaries, thank you very much for joining us. Armstrong Williams, Craig Crawford, Jonathan Capehart and Clarence Page as well. Our coverage continues now on “COUNTDOWN” with Keith Olbermann. Again, MSNBC has taken Don Imus off the air. There will be more pressure for CBS Radio to do the same, according to Al Sharpton. And Keith Olbermann continues our coverage right now. Have a good evening.
